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Every time someone makes this argument I feel like they're undermining the point they are trying to make. You sound like a politician trying to couch his corrup

Every time someone makes this argument I feel like they're undermining the point they are trying to make. You sound like a politician trying to couch his corruption in some legal technicality ("depends on what the definition of "is" is"). There are lots of reasons to look at the content industry and say "You are screwing us over, taking our rights and laughing all the way to the bank while you cry to our faces, you suck" but making up bullshit only makes you seem like you’re pedaling it too. Instead of buying it, you took it. That's basically stealing.

cryptoz 14y ago
Wait a minute, slow down. There's a real difference, a big one that seriously matters. I live in Canada. Stealing is a crime. You can face jail time, a permanent criminal record, and be removed from society for a very long time if you are found guilty of stealing. None of that can happen to you if you pirate an album. Framing the issue to make it sound like you can be a criminal facing time in jail for downloading an album is absurd. It's very far removed from reality and builds a culture of hatred and fear that is not actually present. Stealing and pirating music are very different things. It's wrong to talk about them as though they are the same. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Pirating digital content is wrong. It's an issue that urgently needs attention. I'm not trying to justify the actions or call out in support of pirates. I am trying to make sure everyone knows that "stealing" has an important legal definition that is irrelevant to pirating music.
- stinkytaco 14y ago
  It's not the terminology per se that is the issue, but insisting on correcting everyone who uses it. In the minds of everyone who is not in the group that makes that distinction it sounds like you're trying to justify something. It's essentially identical to the argument college kids make to me all the time: "I'm not stealing anything, I'm pirating it." Of course you are, but if I explained this issue to, say, a Senator, they would say it's stealing. At that point, yes, correct said Senator, then you're in a real discussion about a real issue. Swooping in and correcting some guy who casually uses the term "stealing" on an Internet form just grates on me because you sound like those college kids trying to justify themselves.
  - moe 14y ago
    but insisting on correcting everyone who uses it. We correct you because you're using misleading terminology, as cryptoz explained. Language matters and it's hard to have a useful discussion when either side keeps on falling back to prejudiced terminology.
    - freehunter 14y ago
      To take it to an extreme, it's like saying you murdered someone when you ran a red light and hit their car. Yes, they died, but you're only really guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Manslaughter gets you 5-10 years, murder gets you life. Two sides of the same coin, maybe, but wildly differing laws, punishment, and intent. Stealing and pirating are both taking something that is not rightfully yours, but they are barely in the same category of crime.
      - Drbble 14y ago
        Pirating is sharing something not rightfully yours, not taking. Making and circulating copies is illegal, not receiving copies.
  - bbrtyth 14y ago
    And in the minds of everyone in the group, you are trying to tar a number of people with the same brush. It grates on us that you write like you don't understand it's a civil case. But you are more important than everyone else, so let's use your method.
    - stinkytaco 14y ago
      I know you're right. I know the term isn't "stealing" and that it's incorrect to use that term (and you'll notice that I didn't). But it's not me you have to convince. You have to convince everyone who doesn't understand the subtleties and swooping in to correct casual usage is not going to help you convince anyone, it's going to make you look annoying. It's as if you correct everyone who uses the term "soccer" by saying "It's actually 'football'" or correcting everyone who conflates a alligator and a crocodile in casual conversation. In the end people will just ignore you.
- Semiapies 14y ago
  Does Canada really have draconian shoplifting laws that put people in prison "for a very long time" for stealing something the cost of a CD? In US jurisdictions, that's a misdemeanor.
  - cryptoz 14y ago
    Not for one CD, no. But many people who pirate music have amassed collections worth tens of thousands of dollars (had they been purchased legally). If you were to steal merchandise worth $20,000, yes, I think our laws are pretty strict about that.
    - Semiapies 14y ago
      Aren't you shifting the framing of the issue right there, suddenly going from "downloading an album" to amassing "collections" worth tens of thousands of dollars? Also, Canada is signatory to the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights; having collections of pirated material deemed to be of "commercial scale" is a criminal offense. I get that you're trying to distinguish between what are often civil vs. criminal matters, but it's a bit of a stretch. "Stealing" is a term that gets used for a lot of things other than literal theft in criminal law.
      - cryptoz 14y ago
        > Aren't you shifting the framing of the issue right there, suddenly going from "downloading an album" to amassing "collections" worth tens of thousands of dollars? No. While the large numbers illustrate my point better, the small ones hold true as well. Steal one album: arrest, criminal record. Download one album: nothing. > Also, Canada is signatory to the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights; having collections of pirated material deemed to be of "commercial scale" is a criminal offense. I'll have to look into that - thanks.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    England has the concept of arrestable offences. There are criminal laws which go in front of a magistrate (or a judge & jury if severe enough). Theft would be a criminal offence. Shop-lifting would be counted as theft. Violating copyrights is illegal, but it's not a criminal offence. You're not going to be arrested for it. The Crown Prosecution Service won't do anything. The rights holders can sue for loss of earnings - that's 79pence per track. They can try and sue for the stuff you've shared. Copyright violation becomes criminal offence if done as part of trade - burning movies to DVD and selling them, for example.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
You're not helping either. Is reading a book in a library stealing? Listening to a song on the radio? Watching a show over broadcast TV? What if I avoid commercials and never buy the TV show or album on disc? In utter isolation is that any different than someone torrenting an album and never buying it? And how does it change things if some people who torrent albums nevertheless spend money on music? The whole premise of sharing being "piracy" is the idea that uncompensated consumption represents a loss of a sale. But is that any more or less true than it is with radio or TV?
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  > Is reading a book in a library stealing? No. The book was purchased. In some cases the book is purchased directly by the library. In other cases it was purchased by a citizen and then donated to the library when they were done with it. But in any case, each copy of the book (or CD or DVD) was purchased. You are borrowing a purchased copy and will return it when finished. Then someone else will borrow it. That is fair use. If you don't return it to the library, then it might be considered stealing. > Listening to a song on the radio? No. Radio stations have contracts in place with the various sources of the music that allows them to broadcast the music. Radio stations cover this cost by selling ads. Pay radio allows you to get the same content commercial free. But your subscription is covering the station's costs. I'm pretty sure there is some sort of royalty payments, but I'm not sure exactly how those work from one station to the next. > Watching a show over broadcast TV? No. TV stations a generally affiliates of a higher network that is actually creating the show. Other stations also pay for syndicated shows once they have reached a certain age. TV also uses the ad model and you also find pay stations (like HBO, etc). I would imagine the payment contracts in broadcast TV are also similar to radio. > What if I avoid commercials... This is an issue that scared the networks early on when things like TiVo and other DVRs were popping up. I'm pretty sure that commercial avoidance is pretty similar to web ads in that you can't force people to watch them. Even if you were watching it live and could not fast forward... that is typically when you would use the toilet or grab a snack. So the big difference between all those things and piracy is that those things are approved methods of controlled content delivery and each has a payment structure in place that allows the content creator to receive compensation. Straight up piracy lacks that compensation. > how does it change things if some people who torrent albums nevertheless spend money on music? Doesn't matter. That is like saying it is ok to jump the subway turnstile today because you paid the fare 3 times last week.

cryptoz 14y ago

Wait a minute, slow down. There's a real difference, a big one that seriously matters. I live in Canada. Stealing is a crime. You can face jail time, a permanent criminal record, and be removed from society for a very long time if you are found guilty of stealing. None of that can happen to you if you pirate an album. Framing the issue to make it sound like you can be a criminal facing time in jail for downloading an album is absurd. It's very far removed from reality and builds a culture of hatred and fear that is not actually present. Stealing and pirating music are very different things. It's wrong to talk about them as though they are the same. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Pirating digital content is wrong. It's an issue that urgently needs attention. I'm not trying to justify the actions or call out in support of pirates. I am trying to make sure everyone knows that "stealing" has an important legal definition that is irrelevant to pirating music.

stinkytaco 14y ago
It's not the terminology per se that is the issue, but insisting on correcting everyone who uses it. In the minds of everyone who is not in the group that makes that distinction it sounds like you're trying to justify something. It's essentially identical to the argument college kids make to me all the time: "I'm not stealing anything, I'm pirating it." Of course you are, but if I explained this issue to, say, a Senator, they would say it's stealing. At that point, yes, correct said Senator, then you're in a real discussion about a real issue. Swooping in and correcting some guy who casually uses the term "stealing" on an Internet form just grates on me because you sound like those college kids trying to justify themselves.
- moe 14y ago
  but insisting on correcting everyone who uses it. We correct you because you're using misleading terminology, as cryptoz explained. Language matters and it's hard to have a useful discussion when either side keeps on falling back to prejudiced terminology.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    To take it to an extreme, it's like saying you murdered someone when you ran a red light and hit their car. Yes, they died, but you're only really guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Manslaughter gets you 5-10 years, murder gets you life. Two sides of the same coin, maybe, but wildly differing laws, punishment, and intent. Stealing and pirating are both taking something that is not rightfully yours, but they are barely in the same category of crime.
    - Drbble 14y ago
      Pirating is sharing something not rightfully yours, not taking. Making and circulating copies is illegal, not receiving copies.
- bbrtyth 14y ago
  And in the minds of everyone in the group, you are trying to tar a number of people with the same brush. It grates on us that you write like you don't understand it's a civil case. But you are more important than everyone else, so let's use your method.
  - stinkytaco 14y ago
    I know you're right. I know the term isn't "stealing" and that it's incorrect to use that term (and you'll notice that I didn't). But it's not me you have to convince. You have to convince everyone who doesn't understand the subtleties and swooping in to correct casual usage is not going to help you convince anyone, it's going to make you look annoying. It's as if you correct everyone who uses the term "soccer" by saying "It's actually 'football'" or correcting everyone who conflates a alligator and a crocodile in casual conversation. In the end people will just ignore you.
Semiapies 14y ago
Does Canada really have draconian shoplifting laws that put people in prison "for a very long time" for stealing something the cost of a CD? In US jurisdictions, that's a misdemeanor.
- cryptoz 14y ago
  Not for one CD, no. But many people who pirate music have amassed collections worth tens of thousands of dollars (had they been purchased legally). If you were to steal merchandise worth $20,000, yes, I think our laws are pretty strict about that.
  - Semiapies 14y ago
    Aren't you shifting the framing of the issue right there, suddenly going from "downloading an album" to amassing "collections" worth tens of thousands of dollars? Also, Canada is signatory to the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights; having collections of pirated material deemed to be of "commercial scale" is a criminal offense. I get that you're trying to distinguish between what are often civil vs. criminal matters, but it's a bit of a stretch. "Stealing" is a term that gets used for a lot of things other than literal theft in criminal law.
    - cryptoz 14y ago
      > Aren't you shifting the framing of the issue right there, suddenly going from "downloading an album" to amassing "collections" worth tens of thousands of dollars? No. While the large numbers illustrate my point better, the small ones hold true as well. Steal one album: arrest, criminal record. Download one album: nothing. > Also, Canada is signatory to the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights; having collections of pirated material deemed to be of "commercial scale" is a criminal offense. I'll have to look into that - thanks.
- DanBC 14y ago
  England has the concept of arrestable offences. There are criminal laws which go in front of a magistrate (or a judge & jury if severe enough). Theft would be a criminal offence. Shop-lifting would be counted as theft. Violating copyrights is illegal, but it's not a criminal offence. You're not going to be arrested for it. The Crown Prosecution Service won't do anything. The rights holders can sue for loss of earnings - that's 79pence per track. They can try and sue for the stuff you've shared. Copyright violation becomes criminal offence if done as part of trade - burning movies to DVD and selling them, for example.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

You're not helping either. Is reading a book in a library stealing? Listening to a song on the radio? Watching a show over broadcast TV? What if I avoid commercials and never buy the TV show or album on disc? In utter isolation is that any different than someone torrenting an album and never buying it? And how does it change things if some people who torrent albums nevertheless spend money on music? The whole premise of sharing being "piracy" is the idea that uncompensated consumption represents a loss of a sale. But is that any more or less true than it is with radio or TV?

jack-r-abbit 14y ago
> Is reading a book in a library stealing? No. The book was purchased. In some cases the book is purchased directly by the library. In other cases it was purchased by a citizen and then donated to the library when they were done with it. But in any case, each copy of the book (or CD or DVD) was purchased. You are borrowing a purchased copy and will return it when finished. Then someone else will borrow it. That is fair use. If you don't return it to the library, then it might be considered stealing. > Listening to a song on the radio? No. Radio stations have contracts in place with the various sources of the music that allows them to broadcast the music. Radio stations cover this cost by selling ads. Pay radio allows you to get the same content commercial free. But your subscription is covering the station's costs. I'm pretty sure there is some sort of royalty payments, but I'm not sure exactly how those work from one station to the next. > Watching a show over broadcast TV? No. TV stations a generally affiliates of a higher network that is actually creating the show. Other stations also pay for syndicated shows once they have reached a certain age. TV also uses the ad model and you also find pay stations (like HBO, etc). I would imagine the payment contracts in broadcast TV are also similar to radio. > What if I avoid commercials... This is an issue that scared the networks early on when things like TiVo and other DVRs were popping up. I'm pretty sure that commercial avoidance is pretty similar to web ads in that you can't force people to watch them. Even if you were watching it live and could not fast forward... that is typically when you would use the toilet or grab a snack. So the big difference between all those things and piracy is that those things are approved methods of controlled content delivery and each has a payment structure in place that allows the content creator to receive compensation. Straight up piracy lacks that compensation. > how does it change things if some people who torrent albums nevertheless spend money on music? Doesn't matter. That is like saying it is ok to jump the subway turnstile today because you paid the fare 3 times last week.