5 ms·

Many years ago I met someone who only eats egg whites. I watched him pouring yolks into the drain. I asked, why do you do that? He answered, because yolks conta

Many years ago I met someone who only eats egg whites. I watched him pouring yolks into the drain. I asked, why do you do that? He answered, because yolks contain unhealthy fats. Years later I realized that we all who eat eggs and poultry are not better. We discard half of all hatched chicks. I eat eggs. I decided to accept that ugly fact. If you don't, stop eating eggs and poultry. Or raise your own chickens. Anything else is hypocrisy. At least we can try to minimize the suffering of the animals. Technology can help. Maybe. If technology costs are lower than the costs of discarding half of the chicks, it will be successful just because it is economical. Moral outrage won't change a lot. Usually when I am buying or eating eggs it is easy for me to not think about discarded male chicks. Then I pray for forgiveness. I prefer to buy eggs where the label says they are from free-range chickens, however.

seszett 3y ago
> Maybe. If technology costs are lower than the costs of discarding half of the chicks, it will be successful just because it is economical. Moral outrage won't change a lot. Killing male chicks after birth has been forbidden in France since 2022 though, eggs must be sorted before birth. Moral outrage is supposed to turn into law and then it has to be done, economical or not. It can work, not everything has to be seen through the lens of money.
- gambiting 3y ago
  >>eggs must be sorted before birth. How does that work then? Do we already have technology to do this?
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ovo_sexing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ovo_sexing
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    The Circuit uses a laser to create a tiny hole of 0.3 mm (0.01 in) in the shell of all fertilized hatching eggs. A minimal amount of allantoic fluid is then extracted from the hatching eggs and placed into an external marker. From https://www.respeggt.com/technology/ https://www.respeggt.com/technology/. According to their own site, they are a for-profit organisation incorporated in Köln, are focused on humane poultry and appear to have invented this technology.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    I'm actually incubating my first round of eggs today and we're trying to get an 8:1 ratio of hens to roosters. I found a paper from the early 1900s that documented the old way of sexing eggs. After the egg is laid and has cooled off, a bubble forms in the wider end of the egg. If you candle the egg the bubble will either be centered in the end of the egg if its male, or the bubble will be offset and not touching the end point of the egg at all. No clue if it will actually work but interestingly enough we did get roughly a 50/50 split from our chickens. I guess we'll find out in about 9-12 weeks if the trick actually worked!
    - nindalf 3y ago
      I'd have thought you'd be able to simply look at the egg and determine it, given your username.
      - _heimdall 3y ago
        Only when I'm trying to show off at a party.
    - _nalply 3y ago
      I would like to learn about it, too. Please. Could you post a link where you will tell about your experience?
      - _heimdall 3y ago
        https://www.nal.usda.gov/exhibits/ipd/frostonchickens/exhibits/show/poultryfarming/item/135 https://www.nal.usda.gov/exhibits/ipd/frostonchickens/exhibi... Here's the right link! The paper is from 1921, this page should have a link to the full text. Just started our incubator today with 24 female eggs and 3 males per the bubble, we'll see what happens!
- thelittleone 3y ago
  The challenge with moral outrage is it rarely has the endurance necessary to elicit the important change.
Etheryte 3y ago
I don't really see the reason for obsessing over hypocrisy in such a way. Humans are inconsistent and illogical in their choices all the time, trying to pretend we're logical machines is a practice in futility — one that many great philosophers have taken the time to tear apart over the centuries. I don't eat my eggs in a certain way because it's logically consistent, I eat them because I like them.
- pierat 3y ago
  No, humans aren't that illogical. It's that layers upon layers of obfuscation are used to hide the terrible facts. There's even terms to describe this, such as "how the sausage is made".
seabass-labrax 3y ago
I don't know where you live, but you have to be aware of exactly what the labelling rules are where you buy eggs. In Britain, free range only means that the hens have access to open-air spaces, but not that the hens ordinarily inhabit that area. Considering the strict hierarchy that chickens form (the original pecking order), some individuals might never get an opportunity to be in this open-air space. Organic is a different protected term in the UK that has additional conditions, such as a more humane limit on the density of the hens' accomodation and stricter dietary requirements. It's a really complicated issue with some fierce lobbying from the intensive farming industry to loosen the welfare requirements, but suffice it to say that there is a 'euphemism treadmill' of constantly changing terminology depending on whether the factory farming or the welfare lobbies have the upper hand at any given moment.
GuB-42 3y ago
> Years later I realized that we all who eat eggs and poultry are not better. There is a difference though. According to Wikipedia, the remains of female chicks are later used in cat food and fertilizers. Anyways, the idea is that it is not wasted. Throwing yolks down the drain is just waste. Or at least that's what I've seen. It is actually not that easy to find information about what is done after chick culling. Almost all sources focus on the ethics of killing. But I think what is done with the remains doesn't get enough attention. We kill to eat, directly or indirectly, vegans less than meat eaters, but there is no way around it unless we make radical change to society, and by radical I mean stuff like genocide or science fiction level technology, so, no. So I think we need to settle for the next best thing, that is making sure all that killing is put to good use. So, if the chick remains are wasted I agree that something needs to be done. If the remains are used for feeding cats in a way that reduces the need for other food sources (like chicken people could eat), then it is not as bad. Gruesome, sure, but at least, it is not a meaningless death, that's what fed your cat.
Aerbil313 3y ago
> At least we can try to minimize the suffering of the animals. I don’t understand the ethical framework here. Is it just that you feel bad? Then, why do you feel a need to impose your feelings on others who don’t necessarily feel the same way? If you are saying this because of a belief system, it’s unclear. Can you name or explain it? I believe in Islam. Our God told us in revelation that He created animals for our consumption, thus we see nothing wrong with killing and eating them. (Our prophet told us to minimize the suffering of an animal while killing it.) Being omniscient, God has the knowledge to definitively determine moral and immoral actions. Being the omnipotent creator and ruler of everything, He has the authority to order humans to behave as per his ethics. Thus I preach God’s morality as I see it. From my viewpoint, I am self-consistent. Now think about your situation. Why should the feelings of fallible people just like me should determine at all how I should act? Are you self-consistent? Hope this doesn’t come across as offensive, rather legitimate questions to think about. Feel free to point out any mistakes.
- lupire 3y ago
  PP is talking about trying to build an ethical system from principles like the Golden Rule, not simply doing as you are told by an unknown authority.
_nalply 3y ago
TIL an egg sexing technology has been developed and that this allowed to ban chick sexing. I am happy about that. Re "free-range" chickens: TIL that this is not an useful label in some countries. Thanks for pointing this out. This needs some more research, especially what this means where I live.

seszett 3y ago

> Maybe. If technology costs are lower than the costs of discarding half of the chicks, it will be successful just because it is economical. Moral outrage won't change a lot. Killing male chicks after birth has been forbidden in France since 2022 though, eggs must be sorted before birth. Moral outrage is supposed to turn into law and then it has to be done, economical or not. It can work, not everything has to be seen through the lens of money.

gambiting 3y ago
>>eggs must be sorted before birth. How does that work then? Do we already have technology to do this?
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ovo_sexing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ovo_sexing
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  The Circuit uses a laser to create a tiny hole of 0.3 mm (0.01 in) in the shell of all fertilized hatching eggs. A minimal amount of allantoic fluid is then extracted from the hatching eggs and placed into an external marker. From https://www.respeggt.com/technology/ https://www.respeggt.com/technology/. According to their own site, they are a for-profit organisation incorporated in Köln, are focused on humane poultry and appear to have invented this technology.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  I'm actually incubating my first round of eggs today and we're trying to get an 8:1 ratio of hens to roosters. I found a paper from the early 1900s that documented the old way of sexing eggs. After the egg is laid and has cooled off, a bubble forms in the wider end of the egg. If you candle the egg the bubble will either be centered in the end of the egg if its male, or the bubble will be offset and not touching the end point of the egg at all. No clue if it will actually work but interestingly enough we did get roughly a 50/50 split from our chickens. I guess we'll find out in about 9-12 weeks if the trick actually worked!
  - nindalf 3y ago
    I'd have thought you'd be able to simply look at the egg and determine it, given your username.
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      Only when I'm trying to show off at a party.
  - _nalply 3y ago
    I would like to learn about it, too. Please. Could you post a link where you will tell about your experience?
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      https://www.nal.usda.gov/exhibits/ipd/frostonchickens/exhibits/show/poultryfarming/item/135 https://www.nal.usda.gov/exhibits/ipd/frostonchickens/exhibi... Here's the right link! The paper is from 1921, this page should have a link to the full text. Just started our incubator today with 24 female eggs and 3 males per the bubble, we'll see what happens!
thelittleone 3y ago
The challenge with moral outrage is it rarely has the endurance necessary to elicit the important change.

Etheryte 3y ago

I don't really see the reason for obsessing over hypocrisy in such a way. Humans are inconsistent and illogical in their choices all the time, trying to pretend we're logical machines is a practice in futility — one that many great philosophers have taken the time to tear apart over the centuries. I don't eat my eggs in a certain way because it's logically consistent, I eat them because I like them.

pierat 3y ago
No, humans aren't that illogical. It's that layers upon layers of obfuscation are used to hide the terrible facts. There's even terms to describe this, such as "how the sausage is made".

seabass-labrax 3y ago

I don't know where you live, but you have to be aware of exactly what the labelling rules are where you buy eggs. In Britain, free range only means that the hens have access to open-air spaces, but not that the hens ordinarily inhabit that area. Considering the strict hierarchy that chickens form (the original pecking order), some individuals might never get an opportunity to be in this open-air space. Organic is a different protected term in the UK that has additional conditions, such as a more humane limit on the density of the hens' accomodation and stricter dietary requirements. It's a really complicated issue with some fierce lobbying from the intensive farming industry to loosen the welfare requirements, but suffice it to say that there is a 'euphemism treadmill' of constantly changing terminology depending on whether the factory farming or the welfare lobbies have the upper hand at any given moment.

GuB-42 3y ago

> Years later I realized that we all who eat eggs and poultry are not better. There is a difference though. According to Wikipedia, the remains of female chicks are later used in cat food and fertilizers. Anyways, the idea is that it is not wasted. Throwing yolks down the drain is just waste. Or at least that's what I've seen. It is actually not that easy to find information about what is done after chick culling. Almost all sources focus on the ethics of killing. But I think what is done with the remains doesn't get enough attention. We kill to eat, directly or indirectly, vegans less than meat eaters, but there is no way around it unless we make radical change to society, and by radical I mean stuff like genocide or science fiction level technology, so, no. So I think we need to settle for the next best thing, that is making sure all that killing is put to good use. So, if the chick remains are wasted I agree that something needs to be done. If the remains are used for feeding cats in a way that reduces the need for other food sources (like chicken people could eat), then it is not as bad. Gruesome, sure, but at least, it is not a meaningless death, that's what fed your cat.

Aerbil313 3y ago

> At least we can try to minimize the suffering of the animals. I don’t understand the ethical framework here. Is it just that you feel bad? Then, why do you feel a need to impose your feelings on others who don’t necessarily feel the same way? If you are saying this because of a belief system, it’s unclear. Can you name or explain it? I believe in Islam. Our God told us in revelation that He created animals for our consumption, thus we see nothing wrong with killing and eating them. (Our prophet told us to minimize the suffering of an animal while killing it.) Being omniscient, God has the knowledge to definitively determine moral and immoral actions. Being the omnipotent creator and ruler of everything, He has the authority to order humans to behave as per his ethics. Thus I preach God’s morality as I see it. From my viewpoint, I am self-consistent. Now think about your situation. Why should the feelings of fallible people just like me should determine at all how I should act? Are you self-consistent? Hope this doesn’t come across as offensive, rather legitimate questions to think about. Feel free to point out any mistakes.

lupire 3y ago
PP is talking about trying to build an ethical system from principles like the Golden Rule, not simply doing as you are told by an unknown authority.

_nalply 3y ago

TIL an egg sexing technology has been developed and that this allowed to ban chick sexing. I am happy about that. Re "free-range" chickens: TIL that this is not an useful label in some countries. Thanks for pointing this out. This needs some more research, especially what this means where I live.