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I lost any trust in that ranking after I saw Germany on place 4... Bureaucracy is extreme and some things that you could do in hours in other countries may take

I lost any trust in that ranking after I saw Germany on place 4... Bureaucracy is extreme and some things that you could do in hours in other countries may take months or even years in Germany. Average tax rate is also second-highest among all OECD countries. Energy prices are extremely high (3x higher than in the US) and labour costs are high. There are also many other problems with Germany if you want to do business there.

SwiftyBug 3y ago
Labour costs are high is a bad thing? I see it as social cohesion, where people get paid less unfairly.
- Traubenfuchs 3y ago
  The discussion here seems to focus on the owning/founding class sides perspective. This side, understandably, does not like high salaries and workers rights.
- jajko 3y ago
  Not sure if you are serious with your comment but I'll bite - when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc. This mindset is pervasive in Europe, and reason we are so much behind compared where we could be. Which can be fine, focus more on social aspect if thats your priority, but then good old greed kicks in and everybody wants those sweet money and benefits they bring, without necessary risks and downsides. World doesn't work that way and never will, its simple math at the core.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    > when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc. "I took on some risks to build up my personal wealth, now I am entitled to be as exploitative as I can be. They only work what their contract dictates, fuck them". This is precisely why regulations and labor protections are important. People like you are the living proof that if allowed, workers would be bled dry.
    - yhavr 3y ago
      There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome. Really, if in a (over)socialist country I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all.
      - surgical_fire 3y ago
        > There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome. I happen to know quite a few people from Germany. All things considered, there are good jobs and they have decent living standards. > Really, if in a (over)socialist country Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high? > I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all. By all means, do it. What are you waiting for? Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless.
        yhavr 3y ago
        > Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high? (from what I researched) To the extent that Germany wouldn't allow me to invoice foreign company as a freelancer, because it's considered false employment. The state is so nanny that wants to impose their labor protection and social security on people who visibly don't want it. In other countries, I observe there is a kind of "social contract" (at least for programmers) to allow people work through business entities, pay less taxes and get less protection, if they're competent enough to make this kinds of contracts. > Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless. They are. Portugal and Spain impose a lot of socialist regulations backed by high taxes, yet they complain about brain drain (pt) and unemployment (es). People don't want to come and open businesses to these very attractive places for relocation. Instead, cold small Estonia gets their startup boom, surprise-surprise.
- jvmboi 3y ago
  You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible. Speaking as a German, wrt pay I think this topic is not quite so simple. Germany doesn't have particularly high wages and one of the reasons for that is that labor costs are so high. How can that be? Simple: all labor protection that we have is, at end, simply a cost. Yes, we have payed sick leave. Very civilized. But German employees call out sick, on average, 11 days a years. That's almost two weeks pay for no labor. In a global, competitive labor market that cost isn't coming out of the profits of the company. It's coming out of our wages. And so it is with all the other "goodies" that we get. Btw, our cohesion isn't really what it used to be either.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    > You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible. "Can someone think of the poor entrepreneurs? They just want to exploit workers freely, but the mean government keeps getting in the way. Why would they create rules that protect the people? This is so unfair"
    - jvmboi 3y ago
      Yeah, thanks for this run of the mill communist bullshit that doesn't have anything to do with what I said. "Oh yeah, pay for work is EXPLOITATION guys, guys, guys, the only ETHICAL way is for daddy government to force people to work at gun point".
      - surgical_fire 3y ago
        Can you point on a doll where the mean government touched you?
        3y ago
snowpid 3y ago
Maybe there are things in Germany where the country excels other countries. Energy price is not the only indicator!
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  Considering that Germany is losing business left and right, companies moving to other countries, rates of reemigration falling down, I’d say there’s not much positive development in Germany right now. Totally unappealing to start a new business and the bureaucracy is crazy.
  - snowpid 3y ago
    Considering there are still major investments into Germany, there is still much positive development. I guess some people are just blind.
    - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
      Gravis Store shutting down all locations in Germany, Bosch to lay off thousands by 2025. This is just from last week. Some people are blind, indeed. Tell me more about those new investments pouring into Germany. Maybe we are consuming different news.

SwiftyBug 3y ago

Labour costs are high is a bad thing? I see it as social cohesion, where people get paid less unfairly.

Traubenfuchs 3y ago
The discussion here seems to focus on the owning/founding class sides perspective. This side, understandably, does not like high salaries and workers rights.
jajko 3y ago
Not sure if you are serious with your comment but I'll bite - when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc. This mindset is pervasive in Europe, and reason we are so much behind compared where we could be. Which can be fine, focus more on social aspect if thats your priority, but then good old greed kicks in and everybody wants those sweet money and benefits they bring, without necessary risks and downsides. World doesn't work that way and never will, its simple math at the core.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > when you start a company, after going through all the hell of starting it and making it profitable (which is often multiyear draining effort which destroys families and health easily, risk of losing literally everything is very real), you want to give all those money to other people, who put just their expected 40h effort with maximum salary security, 5-6 weeks of paid holidays etc. "I took on some risks to build up my personal wealth, now I am entitled to be as exploitative as I can be. They only work what their contract dictates, fuck them". This is precisely why regulations and labor protections are important. People like you are the living proof that if allowed, workers would be bled dry.
  - yhavr 3y ago
    There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome. Really, if in a (over)socialist country I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all.
    - surgical_fire 3y ago
      > There should be a balance between workers bleeding dry in capitalism, and workers don't have (good) jobs because it's too much hassle with "regulations and labor protections", and is not worth the outcome. I happen to know quite a few people from Germany. All things considered, there are good jobs and they have decent living standards. > Really, if in a (over)socialist country Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high? > I have an idea to build my personal wealth, why would I give jobs to all these protected guys, if I can leave them jobless, and get €€€ using minimal team I can assemble. Ideally - being solopreneur at all. By all means, do it. What are you waiting for? Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless.
      - yhavr 3y ago
        > Germany? (Over)socialist? Are you high? (from what I researched) To the extent that Germany wouldn't allow me to invoice foreign company as a freelancer, because it's considered false employment. The state is so nanny that wants to impose their labor protection and social security on people who visibly don't want it. In other countries, I observe there is a kind of "social contract" (at least for programmers) to allow people work through business entities, pay less taxes and get less protection, if they're competent enough to make this kinds of contracts. > Fact is there is money to be made by employing these "protected guys", they are certainly not jobless. They are. Portugal and Spain impose a lot of socialist regulations backed by high taxes, yet they complain about brain drain (pt) and unemployment (es). People don't want to come and open businesses to these very attractive places for relocation. Instead, cold small Estonia gets their startup boom, surprise-surprise.
jvmboi 3y ago
You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible. Speaking as a German, wrt pay I think this topic is not quite so simple. Germany doesn't have particularly high wages and one of the reasons for that is that labor costs are so high. How can that be? Simple: all labor protection that we have is, at end, simply a cost. Yes, we have payed sick leave. Very civilized. But German employees call out sick, on average, 11 days a years. That's almost two weeks pay for no labor. In a global, competitive labor market that cost isn't coming out of the profits of the company. It's coming out of our wages. And so it is with all the other "goodies" that we get. Btw, our cohesion isn't really what it used to be either.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > You are entitled to your view but I think it is a little unempathetic to be unable or unwilling to put yourself in the shoes of entrepreneurs when the topic is how attractive a place is for them. Of course, all things being equal, a business wants to pay as little for labor as possible. "Can someone think of the poor entrepreneurs? They just want to exploit workers freely, but the mean government keeps getting in the way. Why would they create rules that protect the people? This is so unfair"
  - jvmboi 3y ago
    Yeah, thanks for this run of the mill communist bullshit that doesn't have anything to do with what I said. "Oh yeah, pay for work is EXPLOITATION guys, guys, guys, the only ETHICAL way is for daddy government to force people to work at gun point".
    - surgical_fire 3y ago
      Can you point on a doll where the mean government touched you?
      - 3y ago

snowpid 3y ago

Maybe there are things in Germany where the country excels other countries. Energy price is not the only indicator!

rad_gruchalski 3y ago
Considering that Germany is losing business left and right, companies moving to other countries, rates of reemigration falling down, I’d say there’s not much positive development in Germany right now. Totally unappealing to start a new business and the bureaucracy is crazy.
- snowpid 3y ago
  Considering there are still major investments into Germany, there is still much positive development. I guess some people are just blind.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    Gravis Store shutting down all locations in Germany, Bosch to lay off thousands by 2025. This is just from last week. Some people are blind, indeed. Tell me more about those new investments pouring into Germany. Maybe we are consuming different news.