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I want iOS to be like macOS in that there's one "blessed" store, but I can sell, distribute, and install apps outside of it without giving Apple a cut. macOS h

I want iOS to be like macOS in that there's one "blessed" store, but I can sell, distribute, and install apps outside of it without giving Apple a cut. macOS has proven for decades that a reasonably proprietary OS can be distributed and kept reasonably secure when apps are installed on it outside of an App Store. There's even third-party App Stores on macOS like Steam, Homebrew, and a few more that Indie developers use to distribute apps.

dmix 3y ago
> , but I can sell, distribute, and install apps outside of it without giving Apple a cut. I want this personally for me. But I paid extra money to get my mom an iPhone exactly because she won't be able to stuff like this. I used to regularly have to fix her android phone and the last time she was trying to download an app for tracking hours at work, and somehow downloaded the wrong app with a similar name, this app loaded with 3 different pop ups telling her to install other ad filled apps with generic names like "PDF reader". OP is right, it should be an explicit jailbreaking process that has a technical barrier to entry where my mom can't be talked into doing it over the phone but an enterprising young person could figure it out.
- Difwif 3y ago
  Are you suggesting your Mom has/would have the same experience on macOS? For whatever reason it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. It probably doesn't need to be as cumbersome as a jailbreak. Maybe it's just a "Allow apps not approved by Apple" toggle hidden deep in the settings. I actually would love the ability to set "IT administrator account" on device setup. Then mom can't even change the setting without notifying "dmix" :)
- jkestner 3y ago
  There are plenty of junk apps in the App Store now. Apple does a good job marketing trustworthiness, but having competing app stores may at least get them to put more effort into backing it up.
  - averageRoyalty 3y ago
    Please link to a single one that installs malware or does backgrounf popups as is possible in Android.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bradgessler 3y ago
  Apple has a setting in macOS that disables installing apps outside of the App Store. This would be a completely reasonable setting for iOS for less tech savvy people.
  - davidd_1004 3y ago
    It's fine if it's the default honestly, as long as it exists as a setting you can change.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      This is literally default Android setting, and it even shows scary dialog that sideloading can negatively impact your device.
      - judge2020 3y ago
        Yet the EU got mad at android for ‘barriers’ to sideloading like this since it ‘unfairly’ makes it harder to install third party App Stores.
    - bradgessler 3y ago
      Agreed! macOS has really done a fantastic job balancing out the needs of security with usability.
      - olyjohn 3y ago
        They'll lock it down like an iPhone soon enough. The writing has been on the wall for years. Apple and Microsoft are frothing at the mouth to do this. But they have to do slowly boil the frog, because they know it's the only way people will accept these kind of changes.
        School-Cotton 3y ago
        > The writing has been on the wall for years People have been saying this for more than a decade, but it still hasn’t happened; there are still zero restrictions about what you can and can’t install on macOS.
- gardenhedge 3y ago
  Apple app store has the exact same problems. There was even a post on HN last week about an scam app being the first result in the app store.
  - averageRoyalty 3y ago
    I urge you to ask anyone who provides technical support to the elderly or tech inept what the split is iOS to Android RE scams, malware etc. Nobody's arguing the app store is perfect, but "the exact same problems" is absolutely an incorrect statement.
    - gardenhedge 3y ago
      You're either lying or not reading. > but "the exact same problems" is absolutely an incorrect statement > the last time she was trying to download an app for tracking hours at work, and somehow downloaded the wrong app with a similar name > There was even a post on HN last week about an scam app being the first result in the app store it's the _exact same problem_
      - averageRoyalty 3y ago
        Maybe there a language barrier here. To me, for the problem to be "exactly" the same, it would need to occur at a similar level. I do not believe (based on my personal or professional experience) that this is occuring at a similar level on iOS or Android. You're right the same specific style of problem happens at both, but if it's significantly more on one than the other then it's hard to honestly say they're the same.
- cortesoft 3y ago
  Your mom would have to go out of her way to find and install a separate app store. You could make it give all sorts of warnings that would scare off a non-tech user like your mom.
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    IMO the issue is that people get tricked into doing stuff like this. Elderly people seem even more vulnerable.
    - thewebguyd 3y ago
      Agreed. I primarily work as a sysadmin and the amount of people in my organization that fall for phishing is alarming. It’d be incredibly easy to get someone to turn on the “Allow third party apps” setting and install malicious software. People don’t read warnings, they’ll just click “ok” as many times as they need without reading. That being said I don’t think that’s necessarily a valid reason to completely lock things down, but it definitely should be prohibitively difficult for a vulnerable-to-phishing person to enable.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  As a heavy Linux user for most things I feel the same. I love that I have all non tech savvy people in my life are using. Devices that just work, they all seem happy too. I get the idealistic nature of these lawsuits but people buy these phones for the fact they work and for the protected App Store. Including myself.
  - strogonoff 3y ago
    I used to regard myself highly as somewhat of an expert in tech, with my relatives and friends as a reference. I would spend days (cumulatively, weeks) customizing and locking down my Windows and Linux machines. I could not imagine paying for a closed product if an open alternative was available, even if it meant more ongoing hassle. At first I got into Apple’s ecosystem because it ticked the boxes of being Unix-compatible yet very capable (perhaps rivaling Windows) of working with multimedia, which I did and do. However, the older I get and the more I lurk here and elsewhere, the more I realize there is another reason: I am not an expert, the aforementioned weeks spent on securing my device are not substantially benefitting my life and are better spent on something else, and while no one should completely give up on keeping up-to-date with modern attack vectors paying someone to do that work more competently is worthwhile. I still go to crazy lengths to avoid closed products in actual work I do, but I consider a base system that is maybe proprietary but just works, and securely enough, to be providing value in that way and enabling me to provide more value in turn. And I still consider myself more knowledgeable than 95% of my friends and relatives, so there’s them to think about.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Now, everyone bow to dmix'es preferences about his mom. If you want to child-lock you mom's phone, you should have the ability to do so. Default for adults getting any sort of hardware should be that they are in charge, and any nanny should be opt-in.
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    You can buy an android if you want. Nothing stops you. I like how iOS works and I would prefer the government does not force Apple to change anything about it.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      Imagine a car manufacturer (say Tesla, who has an edge over others much like Apple) could decide where you can go and who your passengers could be? It's much safer! Just think what could happen to you in some ghetto! And that guy is completely creepy anyway. That's pretty much what your argument sounds like to me. Hardware vendors (perhaps other than hardware preconfigured for a particular purpose, i.e. picture frame) should have no say in what runs on that hardware, full stop.
      - School-Cotton 3y ago
        > Imagine a car manufacturer (say Tesla, who has an edge over others much like Apple) could decide where you can go and who your passengers could be? I assume it is legally possibly to sell a car under those conditions, so I don’t even have to imagine. Nobody does it because it would be unpopular and serve no benefit to anyone, not because it’s illegal.
        jojobas 3y ago
        If the first manufacturer to offer decent cars did that and captured the market, it's quite possible that many would put up with it, just as they put up with iphones today. Oh, and pay a 30% tax on all petrol purchases straight to Mr Ford, how's that?
scarface_74 3y ago
It’s reasonably secure because no one has bothered to write malware for it. But there was nothing on the Mac stopping Zoom from putting a backdoor web server on Macs.
- AprilArcus 3y ago
  Apple could revoke Zoom's signing certificate, if they were discovered to be doing this.
  - andrewaylett 3y ago
    That's the thing: they were. Apple did act, but not by revoking the certificate. https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20689644/apple-zoom-web-server-automatic-removal-silent-update-webcam-vulnerability https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20689644/apple-zoom-web-s...
    - xp84 3y ago
      The thing is, Zoom was not being malicious, and weren’t any exploits hypothetical? That server was a good idea, because it allowed launching Zoom calls without the constant warning popups that Apple injected into the process of launching of a custom URI scheme, which was what it used before and after that era. With the local server it was one click to join. Calling it “a web server” was a scare tactic to get people to think Zoom was serving a site to the public, or hosting your public files. No, I don’t want Apple to set the precedent that they will delete your whole business if you make an architecture choice they feel is not perfect.
sneak 3y ago
> macOS has proven for decades that a reasonably proprietary OS can be distributed and kept reasonably secure when apps are installed on it outside of an App Store. That’s not really true. Despite the dangers of centralized app censorship, the state of security on iOS is far beyond that of macOS.
- astrange 3y ago
  iOS also has even more security threats, because a phone is in your pocket and has GPS, and your laptop isn't.
  - intrasight 3y ago
    Also, macOS has like 13% market share vs 60% for iOS - in USA.
dzhiurgis 3y ago
Open source store would be nice. Apple reviews the release ($$$), builds on their server and guarantees it does what it says it does.
- josephg 3y ago
  This would be lovely. As far as I know, right now its entirely possible for an app developer to show clean, trustworthy code on github. And then ship an app bundle on the app store which contains malware. I'd love it if Apple provided a way to protect against this sort of thing.
xnx 3y ago
This seems reasonable and I like the idea of unlocking the capabilities the hardware already has. What makes iPhone different from Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo Switch?
- kibwen 3y ago
  We should be forcing game consoles to open up as well. As well as every other computing device that you can purchase. This is Hacker News; maximizing the freedom to hack our own property is an inviolable position.
  - bfdm 3y ago
    This is mostly as simple as striking out DMCA 1201. The device maker need not bless the activity so long as they do not have a cudgel with which to threaten users from modifying their own devices they bought. I agree we should force platforms to be more.open and interoperable, but we can get at least part way there by not allowing them to sue innovators.

dmix 3y ago

> , but I can sell, distribute, and install apps outside of it without giving Apple a cut. I want this personally for me. But I paid extra money to get my mom an iPhone exactly because she won't be able to stuff like this. I used to regularly have to fix her android phone and the last time she was trying to download an app for tracking hours at work, and somehow downloaded the wrong app with a similar name, this app loaded with 3 different pop ups telling her to install other ad filled apps with generic names like "PDF reader". OP is right, it should be an explicit jailbreaking process that has a technical barrier to entry where my mom can't be talked into doing it over the phone but an enterprising young person could figure it out.

Difwif 3y ago
Are you suggesting your Mom has/would have the same experience on macOS? For whatever reason it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. It probably doesn't need to be as cumbersome as a jailbreak. Maybe it's just a "Allow apps not approved by Apple" toggle hidden deep in the settings. I actually would love the ability to set "IT administrator account" on device setup. Then mom can't even change the setting without notifying "dmix" :)
jkestner 3y ago
There are plenty of junk apps in the App Store now. Apple does a good job marketing trustworthiness, but having competing app stores may at least get them to put more effort into backing it up.
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  Please link to a single one that installs malware or does backgrounf popups as is possible in Android.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bradgessler 3y ago
Apple has a setting in macOS that disables installing apps outside of the App Store. This would be a completely reasonable setting for iOS for less tech savvy people.
- davidd_1004 3y ago
  It's fine if it's the default honestly, as long as it exists as a setting you can change.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    This is literally default Android setting, and it even shows scary dialog that sideloading can negatively impact your device.
    - judge2020 3y ago
      Yet the EU got mad at android for ‘barriers’ to sideloading like this since it ‘unfairly’ makes it harder to install third party App Stores.
  - bradgessler 3y ago
    Agreed! macOS has really done a fantastic job balancing out the needs of security with usability.
    - olyjohn 3y ago
      They'll lock it down like an iPhone soon enough. The writing has been on the wall for years. Apple and Microsoft are frothing at the mouth to do this. But they have to do slowly boil the frog, because they know it's the only way people will accept these kind of changes.
      - School-Cotton 3y ago
        > The writing has been on the wall for years People have been saying this for more than a decade, but it still hasn’t happened; there are still zero restrictions about what you can and can’t install on macOS.
gardenhedge 3y ago
Apple app store has the exact same problems. There was even a post on HN last week about an scam app being the first result in the app store.
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  I urge you to ask anyone who provides technical support to the elderly or tech inept what the split is iOS to Android RE scams, malware etc. Nobody's arguing the app store is perfect, but "the exact same problems" is absolutely an incorrect statement.
  - gardenhedge 3y ago
    You're either lying or not reading. > but "the exact same problems" is absolutely an incorrect statement > the last time she was trying to download an app for tracking hours at work, and somehow downloaded the wrong app with a similar name > There was even a post on HN last week about an scam app being the first result in the app store it's the _exact same problem_
    - averageRoyalty 3y ago
      Maybe there a language barrier here. To me, for the problem to be "exactly" the same, it would need to occur at a similar level. I do not believe (based on my personal or professional experience) that this is occuring at a similar level on iOS or Android. You're right the same specific style of problem happens at both, but if it's significantly more on one than the other then it's hard to honestly say they're the same.
cortesoft 3y ago
Your mom would have to go out of her way to find and install a separate app store. You could make it give all sorts of warnings that would scare off a non-tech user like your mom.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  IMO the issue is that people get tricked into doing stuff like this. Elderly people seem even more vulnerable.
  - thewebguyd 3y ago
    Agreed. I primarily work as a sysadmin and the amount of people in my organization that fall for phishing is alarming. It’d be incredibly easy to get someone to turn on the “Allow third party apps” setting and install malicious software. People don’t read warnings, they’ll just click “ok” as many times as they need without reading. That being said I don’t think that’s necessarily a valid reason to completely lock things down, but it definitely should be prohibitively difficult for a vulnerable-to-phishing person to enable.
bamboozled 3y ago
As a heavy Linux user for most things I feel the same. I love that I have all non tech savvy people in my life are using. Devices that just work, they all seem happy too. I get the idealistic nature of these lawsuits but people buy these phones for the fact they work and for the protected App Store. Including myself.
- strogonoff 3y ago
  I used to regard myself highly as somewhat of an expert in tech, with my relatives and friends as a reference. I would spend days (cumulatively, weeks) customizing and locking down my Windows and Linux machines. I could not imagine paying for a closed product if an open alternative was available, even if it meant more ongoing hassle. At first I got into Apple’s ecosystem because it ticked the boxes of being Unix-compatible yet very capable (perhaps rivaling Windows) of working with multimedia, which I did and do. However, the older I get and the more I lurk here and elsewhere, the more I realize there is another reason: I am not an expert, the aforementioned weeks spent on securing my device are not substantially benefitting my life and are better spent on something else, and while no one should completely give up on keeping up-to-date with modern attack vectors paying someone to do that work more competently is worthwhile. I still go to crazy lengths to avoid closed products in actual work I do, but I consider a base system that is maybe proprietary but just works, and securely enough, to be providing value in that way and enabling me to provide more value in turn. And I still consider myself more knowledgeable than 95% of my friends and relatives, so there’s them to think about.
jojobas 3y ago
Now, everyone bow to dmix'es preferences about his mom. If you want to child-lock you mom's phone, you should have the ability to do so. Default for adults getting any sort of hardware should be that they are in charge, and any nanny should be opt-in.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  You can buy an android if you want. Nothing stops you. I like how iOS works and I would prefer the government does not force Apple to change anything about it.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Imagine a car manufacturer (say Tesla, who has an edge over others much like Apple) could decide where you can go and who your passengers could be? It's much safer! Just think what could happen to you in some ghetto! And that guy is completely creepy anyway. That's pretty much what your argument sounds like to me. Hardware vendors (perhaps other than hardware preconfigured for a particular purpose, i.e. picture frame) should have no say in what runs on that hardware, full stop.
    - School-Cotton 3y ago
      > Imagine a car manufacturer (say Tesla, who has an edge over others much like Apple) could decide where you can go and who your passengers could be? I assume it is legally possibly to sell a car under those conditions, so I don’t even have to imagine. Nobody does it because it would be unpopular and serve no benefit to anyone, not because it’s illegal.
      - jojobas 3y ago
        If the first manufacturer to offer decent cars did that and captured the market, it's quite possible that many would put up with it, just as they put up with iphones today. Oh, and pay a 30% tax on all petrol purchases straight to Mr Ford, how's that?

scarface_74 3y ago

It’s reasonably secure because no one has bothered to write malware for it. But there was nothing on the Mac stopping Zoom from putting a backdoor web server on Macs.

AprilArcus 3y ago
Apple could revoke Zoom's signing certificate, if they were discovered to be doing this.
- andrewaylett 3y ago
  That's the thing: they were. Apple did act, but not by revoking the certificate. https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20689644/apple-zoom-web-server-automatic-removal-silent-update-webcam-vulnerability https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20689644/apple-zoom-web-s...
  - xp84 3y ago
    The thing is, Zoom was not being malicious, and weren’t any exploits hypothetical? That server was a good idea, because it allowed launching Zoom calls without the constant warning popups that Apple injected into the process of launching of a custom URI scheme, which was what it used before and after that era. With the local server it was one click to join. Calling it “a web server” was a scare tactic to get people to think Zoom was serving a site to the public, or hosting your public files. No, I don’t want Apple to set the precedent that they will delete your whole business if you make an architecture choice they feel is not perfect.

sneak 3y ago

> macOS has proven for decades that a reasonably proprietary OS can be distributed and kept reasonably secure when apps are installed on it outside of an App Store. That’s not really true. Despite the dangers of centralized app censorship, the state of security on iOS is far beyond that of macOS.

astrange 3y ago
iOS also has even more security threats, because a phone is in your pocket and has GPS, and your laptop isn't.
- intrasight 3y ago
  Also, macOS has like 13% market share vs 60% for iOS - in USA.

dzhiurgis 3y ago

Open source store would be nice. Apple reviews the release ($$$), builds on their server and guarantees it does what it says it does.

josephg 3y ago
This would be lovely. As far as I know, right now its entirely possible for an app developer to show clean, trustworthy code on github. And then ship an app bundle on the app store which contains malware. I'd love it if Apple provided a way to protect against this sort of thing.

xnx 3y ago

This seems reasonable and I like the idea of unlocking the capabilities the hardware already has. What makes iPhone different from Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo Switch?

kibwen 3y ago
We should be forcing game consoles to open up as well. As well as every other computing device that you can purchase. This is Hacker News; maximizing the freedom to hack our own property is an inviolable position.
- bfdm 3y ago
  This is mostly as simple as striking out DMCA 1201. The device maker need not bless the activity so long as they do not have a cudgel with which to threaten users from modifying their own devices they bought. I agree we should force platforms to be more.open and interoperable, but we can get at least part way there by not allowing them to sue innovators.