7 ms·

We do have "Super Apps" in the Western world. They're called "web browsers." Note that Apple doesn't allow alternative web browsers on iOS, so Safari/WebKit is

We do have "Super Apps" in the Western world. They're called "web browsers." Note that Apple doesn't allow alternative web browsers on iOS, so Safari/WebKit is the only Super App allowed on iOS. https://open-web-advocacy.org/apple-browser-ban/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/apple-browser-ban/ > When you download Chrome, Firefox or any other browser that isn't Safari on an Apple device, that browser is forced to use Safari's rendering engine WebKit. Chrome normally uses Chromium, and Firefox Gecko. However, Apple will not allow those browsers to use their own engines. Without the ability to use their own engines, those browsers are unable to bring you their latest and greatest features, and can only go so far as whatever WebKit has added.

epolanski 3y ago
This is no longer correct I believe at least in the European union.
lucasverra 3y ago
Not the case anymore in EU thx/because DMA (since ios 17.4)
- agust 3y ago
  Although Apple now has to allow alternative browsers to ship their engines in the EU, they actually set out ridiculous conditions for browser vendors to be able to do so. Therefore, as of now, none have done it. This is malicious compliance from Apple to try and make the law ineffective.
  - Andrex 3y ago
    It'll get done sooner than later, that's money just left on the table right now for EU browser makers. And the enforcement of the DMA correcting Apple's most obvious malicious compliance has been swift (backtracking on EU PWAs).
  - pmarreck 3y ago
    Does enforcing a single rendering engine make things like Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) possible? (It's not just a link to a web app on the homepage, it can also hold state, receive notifications, and (within reason) take over most of the screen.) https://web.dev/explore/progressive-web-apps https://web.dev/explore/progressive-web-apps
    - agust 3y ago
      Enforcing a single browser engine is in no way a requirement for PWAs, no. Windows, macOS and Android all support PWAs while also allowing them to be run by different browser engines.
jamesrr39 3y ago
Arguably, F-Droid is a (Android-only, not possible to make such an app on iOS) super app that very much exists in the western world. > Apple itself offers a "super app" of course, which is the Apple ecosystem of apps. To be fair to Apple, both Google and Meta have loads of apps for iOS that compare to the Apple suite of apps. Although there is definitely a pre-installed advantage for the Apple apps.
- lxgr 3y ago
  > F-Droid is a (Android-only, not possible to make such an app on iOS) super app that very much exists in the western world. I’d call that an app marketplace, not a super app.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Then wouldn’t the same argument apply to the Apple App Store?
    - lxgr 3y ago
      I think it does. Calling iOS a "super app" seems weird and doesn't explain a lot, in my view.
panarky 3y ago
First, Chrome's rendering engine is Blink. Chromium is not a rendering engine, it's the open-source version of Chrome. Second, third-party browsers use their own rendering engines (Gecko, Blink) on MacOS, while iOS only allows WebKit.
wslh 3y ago
> Note that Apple doesn't allow alternative web browsers on iOS, Nor [embedded] programming languages (e.g. Python).
- eecc 3y ago
  That’s how Steve Jobs put down Flash. No, for a a platform to survive, its maintainers need the leverage to call out laggards and make them truly sweat and work with it. Not just build 10 layers of Cordova fluff
sunnybeetroot 3y ago
Your second paragraph is incorrect and is explained why in your quote. Apple does allow alternative browsers, it does however restrict the rendering engine. Saying there is only one browser on iOS is like saying Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge are the same browser because they both use chromium.
- scraplab 3y ago
  Chromium is open source and both Google and Microsoft do whatever they want to it as part of developing their browsers. WebKit on iOS is a closed source blob of rendering engine and assorted bits that it is not possible to deeply extend or alter.
  - sunnybeetroot 3y ago
    None of what you said is incorrect.
  - mirashii 3y ago
    WebKit is also open source. https://webkit.org/ https://webkit.org/
    - acchow 3y ago
      Yes, you can use open source WebKit to make a browser for Windows or Mac. You cannot for iOS. On iOS, you have to use the WebKit framework. Your app will not be compiled with any WebKit open source code.
- leptons 3y ago
  I see it as Apple allowing a facade around their browser. You can't really call Chrome on iOS as "Chrome" if it's still just Safari under the hood. It's like putting Ferrari body on a 2010 Honda frame. Is it a "Ferrari" or is it really a "Honda"? No, I do not think it's fair to say that Apple allows other browsers, and neither does the DOJ.
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
eecc 3y ago
That’s a specific strategic choice, wanted by Steve Jobs himself to maintain leverage on the browser ecosystem. If Chrome was let loose indiscriminately on any platform, how long before it became a Macromedia Flash, hobbling battery life and performance on whatever platform didn’t align to Alphabet’s strategy? Also, how long before Alphabet began prime-timing Android, leaving Apple versions trailing months of not years behind, and restoring the “Works best on IE” experience of the ‘00s?
warkdarrior 3y ago
That is stretching the definition of a browser. Superapps enable all the miniapps in them to access the same user data, the history of app interactions (e.g., message history, shopping history), and to integrate closely. Webapps are nowhere close to that.

epolanski 3y ago

This is no longer correct I believe at least in the European union.

lucasverra 3y ago

Not the case anymore in EU thx/because DMA (since ios 17.4)

agust 3y ago
Although Apple now has to allow alternative browsers to ship their engines in the EU, they actually set out ridiculous conditions for browser vendors to be able to do so. Therefore, as of now, none have done it. This is malicious compliance from Apple to try and make the law ineffective.
- Andrex 3y ago
  It'll get done sooner than later, that's money just left on the table right now for EU browser makers. And the enforcement of the DMA correcting Apple's most obvious malicious compliance has been swift (backtracking on EU PWAs).
- pmarreck 3y ago
  Does enforcing a single rendering engine make things like Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) possible? (It's not just a link to a web app on the homepage, it can also hold state, receive notifications, and (within reason) take over most of the screen.) https://web.dev/explore/progressive-web-apps https://web.dev/explore/progressive-web-apps
  - agust 3y ago
    Enforcing a single browser engine is in no way a requirement for PWAs, no. Windows, macOS and Android all support PWAs while also allowing them to be run by different browser engines.

jamesrr39 3y ago

Arguably, F-Droid is a (Android-only, not possible to make such an app on iOS) super app that very much exists in the western world. > Apple itself offers a "super app" of course, which is the Apple ecosystem of apps. To be fair to Apple, both Google and Meta have loads of apps for iOS that compare to the Apple suite of apps. Although there is definitely a pre-installed advantage for the Apple apps.

lxgr 3y ago
> F-Droid is a (Android-only, not possible to make such an app on iOS) super app that very much exists in the western world. I’d call that an app marketplace, not a super app.
- TylerE 3y ago
  Then wouldn’t the same argument apply to the Apple App Store?
  - lxgr 3y ago
    I think it does. Calling iOS a "super app" seems weird and doesn't explain a lot, in my view.

panarky 3y ago

First, Chrome's rendering engine is Blink. Chromium is not a rendering engine, it's the open-source version of Chrome. Second, third-party browsers use their own rendering engines (Gecko, Blink) on MacOS, while iOS only allows WebKit.

wslh 3y ago

> Note that Apple doesn't allow alternative web browsers on iOS, Nor [embedded] programming languages (e.g. Python).

eecc 3y ago
That’s how Steve Jobs put down Flash. No, for a a platform to survive, its maintainers need the leverage to call out laggards and make them truly sweat and work with it. Not just build 10 layers of Cordova fluff

sunnybeetroot 3y ago

Your second paragraph is incorrect and is explained why in your quote. Apple does allow alternative browsers, it does however restrict the rendering engine. Saying there is only one browser on iOS is like saying Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge are the same browser because they both use chromium.

scraplab 3y ago
Chromium is open source and both Google and Microsoft do whatever they want to it as part of developing their browsers. WebKit on iOS is a closed source blob of rendering engine and assorted bits that it is not possible to deeply extend or alter.
- sunnybeetroot 3y ago
  None of what you said is incorrect.
- mirashii 3y ago
  WebKit is also open source. https://webkit.org/ https://webkit.org/
  - acchow 3y ago
    Yes, you can use open source WebKit to make a browser for Windows or Mac. You cannot for iOS. On iOS, you have to use the WebKit framework. Your app will not be compiled with any WebKit open source code.
leptons 3y ago
I see it as Apple allowing a facade around their browser. You can't really call Chrome on iOS as "Chrome" if it's still just Safari under the hood. It's like putting Ferrari body on a 2010 Honda frame. Is it a "Ferrari" or is it really a "Honda"? No, I do not think it's fair to say that Apple allows other browsers, and neither does the DOJ.
- 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

eecc 3y ago

That’s a specific strategic choice, wanted by Steve Jobs himself to maintain leverage on the browser ecosystem. If Chrome was let loose indiscriminately on any platform, how long before it became a Macromedia Flash, hobbling battery life and performance on whatever platform didn’t align to Alphabet’s strategy? Also, how long before Alphabet began prime-timing Android, leaving Apple versions trailing months of not years behind, and restoring the “Works best on IE” experience of the ‘00s?

warkdarrior 3y ago

That is stretching the definition of a browser. Superapps enable all the miniapps in them to access the same user data, the history of app interactions (e.g., message history, shopping history), and to integrate closely. Webapps are nowhere close to that.