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"The first iWatch was announced in September 2014 and released in April of 2015." Just a side note: apple has in past started limiting other companies products

"The first iWatch was announced in September 2014 and released in April of 2015." Just a side note: apple has in past started limiting other companies products as soon as they decide to create a competitor and sometimes years before it hits the market. IIRC Spotify has been bitten by this at least once, which resulted in a lawsuit.

shagie 3y ago
What limitations did Apple place in 2013 (or 2014 or 2015) that reduced the functionality of Pebble in light of a forthcoming iWatch? If it was a "it worked and then Apple took away this API that we were going to use" that would be one thing. If it was "the iPhone didn't have the functionality for other devices to read messages over BlueTooth until 2015 with iOS 8" - that's a different claim.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I don't know about Pebble, but Tile got restricted really hard once Apple decided to make the Apple Tag. There's many rants/statements from the Tile CEO on this subject. So this behavior isn't a relic of old APIs
  - shagie 3y ago
    https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/04/tile-ceo-on-competition-from-apple/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/04/tile-ceo-on-competition... > > If you look at the history between Tile and Apple, we had a very symbiotic relationship. They sold Tile in their stores, we were highlighted at WWDC 2019, and then they launched Find My in 2019, and right when they launched their Find My app, which is effectively a competitor of Tile, they made a number of changes to their OS that made it very difficult for our customers to enable Tile. And then once they got it enabled, they started showing notifications that basically made it seem like Tile was broken. > Prober is talking about changes that Apple made to location services permissions. For privacy purposes, Apple stopped making it easy for apps to get permanent access to a user's location. Apps in iOS 13 were not initially allowed to present an "Always Allow" option when requesting location access, and the feature had to be enabled in the Settings app. Apple also started sending regular reminders to customers letting them know their location was being used. > Tile was not happy with these privacy changes and that privacy tweak set Tile against Apple, with Tile in 2019 calling on Congress to "level the playing field." > > The main points of differentiation of AirTags vis a vis Tile are enabled by platform capabilities that we don't have access to. > Apple has, in fact, launched the Find My network that gives third-party accessories some of the same access that AirTags have, and Find My network accessories will be able to access the U1 chip in the iPhone 11 and 12 models much like the AirTags, but Tile won't be able to use the Find My network unless it abandons its own app and infrastructure, which it is likely unwilling to do. > Prober said that Tile has been "seeking to access" the U1 chip since its introduction in the iPhone , and has been denied. ---- Should Apple have a "grant once for app, always allow location service?" (note: this would allow an innocuous app to turn into a tracker with a later update). Or should Apple have a "this app has accessed your location {N} times in the last 24 hours?" ... or some other functionality? Is "grant once, always allow" a security risk for users? For U1 chip access: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction/implementing_spatial_interactions_with_third-party_accessories https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction/... and https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      Does Apples own stuff have the same limitations?
      - shagie 3y ago
        Yes. And you need to go and configure them in settings if you want them to have the access. https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/08/24/manage-widget-location-permissions-tutorial/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/08/24/manage-widget-locat... The example given there is the Weather app and widget which I've gotten notifications for myself. You will also note: > Navigation apps like Google Maps, Waze, Apple Maps, and so forth work best when they can pinpoint your exact location with precision. But a weather app, on the other hand, works just fine even if it’s only allowed to determine the city where you live or just an approximate region. Maps, Messages, HomeKit, Clock, Siri, Weather, Wallet - they're all in there. System services too (and you can disable the system service's access to location data - e.g. Apple Pay Merchant Identification, Compass Calibration, Setting Time Zone). For things that like to access the location in the background (Weather especially does this) you may get "Weather" has been using your location in the background. An example of this can be seen at https://www.lifewire.com/turn-on-mobile-location-services-4156232 https://www.lifewire.com/turn-on-mobile-location-services-41... Its not just "I am using the location data always" but also "this has been accessing your location in the background" which is the type of thing that Tile does. Apple tends to not have apps that access location information in the background and so this sort of message is not one that people tend to see. Weather is the one that does for weather alerts. Apple Maps doesn't access location in the background so one wouldn't ever see the a message from it.
        Wowfunhappy 3y ago
        I have received these messages for e.g. the weather app, but never Find My. Find My seems to be immune.
        shagie 3y ago
        "Find my".app (for lack of a better designator) doesn't use the location information in the background. Weather.app does use location services in the background. Weather (like all user space apps) can also be restricted to only getting the approximate location rather than exact location. Find my system is part of the operating system itself - not an application running in user space. It can be disabled in the "Share My Location" settings in Location services in settings and in System Services "Find My iPhone" because that part of is not a user space app running but rather part of the kernel.
  - joking 3y ago
    there are many examples on this, IOS makes warning messages for other developer apps, but none for their own apps. I received warnings that google maps has used my background location, or than google photos or synology photos have access to my photos, but not a message on the same access from apple maps or apple photos.
    - duskwuff 3y ago
      > IOS makes warning messages for other developer apps, but none for their own apps. This is not true. Apple's own apps, like the Weather widget, will display location permission "nag" screens occasionally just like third-party apps do. > ... but not a message on the same access from apple maps or apple photos. Apple Maps doesn't use your location in the background. It only uses your location while the app is open, or while you're actively navigating using it. Apple Photos is your photos. It'd be weird to warn the user that it "has access" to itself.
cush 3y ago
The complaint is outlined directly in the document https://x.com/ericmigi/status/1770832870870827149 https://x.com/ericmigi/status/1770832870870827149

shagie 3y ago

What limitations did Apple place in 2013 (or 2014 or 2015) that reduced the functionality of Pebble in light of a forthcoming iWatch? If it was a "it worked and then Apple took away this API that we were going to use" that would be one thing. If it was "the iPhone didn't have the functionality for other devices to read messages over BlueTooth until 2015 with iOS 8" - that's a different claim.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
I don't know about Pebble, but Tile got restricted really hard once Apple decided to make the Apple Tag. There's many rants/statements from the Tile CEO on this subject. So this behavior isn't a relic of old APIs
- shagie 3y ago
  https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/04/tile-ceo-on-competition-from-apple/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/04/tile-ceo-on-competition... > > If you look at the history between Tile and Apple, we had a very symbiotic relationship. They sold Tile in their stores, we were highlighted at WWDC 2019, and then they launched Find My in 2019, and right when they launched their Find My app, which is effectively a competitor of Tile, they made a number of changes to their OS that made it very difficult for our customers to enable Tile. And then once they got it enabled, they started showing notifications that basically made it seem like Tile was broken. > Prober is talking about changes that Apple made to location services permissions. For privacy purposes, Apple stopped making it easy for apps to get permanent access to a user's location. Apps in iOS 13 were not initially allowed to present an "Always Allow" option when requesting location access, and the feature had to be enabled in the Settings app. Apple also started sending regular reminders to customers letting them know their location was being used. > Tile was not happy with these privacy changes and that privacy tweak set Tile against Apple, with Tile in 2019 calling on Congress to "level the playing field." > > The main points of differentiation of AirTags vis a vis Tile are enabled by platform capabilities that we don't have access to. > Apple has, in fact, launched the Find My network that gives third-party accessories some of the same access that AirTags have, and Find My network accessories will be able to access the U1 chip in the iPhone 11 and 12 models much like the AirTags, but Tile won't be able to use the Find My network unless it abandons its own app and infrastructure, which it is likely unwilling to do. > Prober said that Tile has been "seeking to access" the U1 chip since its introduction in the iPhone , and has been denied. ---- Should Apple have a "grant once for app, always allow location service?" (note: this would allow an innocuous app to turn into a tracker with a later update). Or should Apple have a "this app has accessed your location {N} times in the last 24 hours?" ... or some other functionality? Is "grant once, always allow" a security risk for users? For U1 chip access: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction/implementing_spatial_interactions_with_third-party_accessories https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction/... and https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    Does Apples own stuff have the same limitations?
    - shagie 3y ago
      Yes. And you need to go and configure them in settings if you want them to have the access. https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/08/24/manage-widget-location-permissions-tutorial/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/08/24/manage-widget-locat... The example given there is the Weather app and widget which I've gotten notifications for myself. You will also note: > Navigation apps like Google Maps, Waze, Apple Maps, and so forth work best when they can pinpoint your exact location with precision. But a weather app, on the other hand, works just fine even if it’s only allowed to determine the city where you live or just an approximate region. Maps, Messages, HomeKit, Clock, Siri, Weather, Wallet - they're all in there. System services too (and you can disable the system service's access to location data - e.g. Apple Pay Merchant Identification, Compass Calibration, Setting Time Zone). For things that like to access the location in the background (Weather especially does this) you may get "Weather" has been using your location in the background. An example of this can be seen at https://www.lifewire.com/turn-on-mobile-location-services-4156232 https://www.lifewire.com/turn-on-mobile-location-services-41... Its not just "I am using the location data always" but also "this has been accessing your location in the background" which is the type of thing that Tile does. Apple tends to not have apps that access location information in the background and so this sort of message is not one that people tend to see. Weather is the one that does for weather alerts. Apple Maps doesn't access location in the background so one wouldn't ever see the a message from it.
      - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
        I have received these messages for e.g. the weather app, but never Find My. Find My seems to be immune.
        shagie 3y ago
        "Find my".app (for lack of a better designator) doesn't use the location information in the background. Weather.app does use location services in the background. Weather (like all user space apps) can also be restricted to only getting the approximate location rather than exact location. Find my system is part of the operating system itself - not an application running in user space. It can be disabled in the "Share My Location" settings in Location services in settings and in System Services "Find My iPhone" because that part of is not a user space app running but rather part of the kernel.
- joking 3y ago
  there are many examples on this, IOS makes warning messages for other developer apps, but none for their own apps. I received warnings that google maps has used my background location, or than google photos or synology photos have access to my photos, but not a message on the same access from apple maps or apple photos.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    > IOS makes warning messages for other developer apps, but none for their own apps. This is not true. Apple's own apps, like the Weather widget, will display location permission "nag" screens occasionally just like third-party apps do. > ... but not a message on the same access from apple maps or apple photos. Apple Maps doesn't use your location in the background. It only uses your location while the app is open, or while you're actively navigating using it. Apple Photos is your photos. It'd be weird to warn the user that it "has access" to itself.

cush 3y ago

The complaint is outlined directly in the document https://x.com/ericmigi/status/1770832870870827149 https://x.com/ericmigi/status/1770832870870827149