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The blue background on messages sent between two iMessage users has to be one of the most brilliant vendor lock-in strategies. It is an artificial form of discr

The blue background on messages sent between two iMessage users has to be one of the most brilliant vendor lock-in strategies. It is an artificial form of discrimination. I feel a slight annoyance whenever a non-Apple user forms a group chat as I know that person will limit the messaging functionality. In my opinion, the "monopolistic" aspect of it comes down to the fact that they tied it into an otherwise open messaging system - SMS. You cannot separate SMS messages from iMessages (to my knowledge). So, the only way to know a message was sent via SMS is the green background for incoming messages and the green background plus the "sent via SMS" for outgoing messages. This creates a disdain for SMS, and anyone who uses it over iMessage. It is such a strong feeling, that having green messages makes you "uncool", especially in the younger crowd. On the other hand, I think the long-term sequalae of the blue-green message is to push people to use stand-alone apps like WhatsApp and FB Messenger. I think it'll be a hard sell at this point to convince a jury that iMessage is an overt monopoly. The main question I want addressed is: If SMS messages can be directly shown in iMessage, and are not secure, then the argument of not allowing "insecure" 3rd-parties to integrate with iMessage goes out the window. All I want is Android messages to be shown in iMessage. Sure we can make them green, but at least they will be sent over the data network and not SMS.

lvl102 3y ago
That’s not Apple’s doing. They introduced iMessage as a direct result of telecom companies charging customers for text messages a la carte. If DoJ has issues with those blue bubbles then they should’ve sued telecom back then. This entire suit is a joke.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  The problem isn't the messaging service, the problem is the artificial hardware requirement in order to use it. Second would be the inability to make another app the primary/default once you have said hardware.
  - lvl102 3y ago
    That’s not what antitrust is about. Functionally speaking, you would not be able to prove there’s economic harm. Apple’s share of smartphone does not even compare to MSFT’s share of PC back in 90/00s.
    - kelnos 3y ago
      Anti-trust law has gone through a variety of interpretations over the long history of its existence, and I think your characterization of it is incorrect, even under today's recent interpretations. This suit seems to follow the interpretation of: "it is bad if consumers are being harmed in some way". Having a monopoly position via market share is not a necessary condition for that to happen.
      - lvl102 3y ago
        How were consumers harmed from iMessage? Apple doesn’t stop people from downloading Whatsapp and hundreds of other communication apps. The only semi-valid argument they have is the app store. And even that is 10-20% chance considering Apple’s market share. Even though this is DoJ, this is all a part of Lina Khan’s naive crusade against NATURAL monopolies. Just because she doesn’t understand economics and how the real world operates in 2024.
        tristan957 3y ago
        I am a consumer that was harmed just this week because I wasn't added to a group chat of only iPhone users because I have an Android device.
        edvinbesic 3y ago
        Doesn't really seem like a platform issue per se since your friends could have easily included you just fine, but chose not to.
        3y ago
shuckles 3y ago
My guess is even if iMessage bubbles were green, the sheer horribleness of SMS would still make communicating with Android a second class experience in a way everyone found frustrating. Sure RCS might make that better (I’m skeptical — standards support in the Android ecosystem is very inconsistent and varying in quality), but it’s a decade late. The basic argument is: Apple can’t make anything better for iPhone users until they can make it a standard for every mobile computing platform and competing service provider. About as absurd as it sounds.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  >Sure RCS might make that better (I’m skeptical — standards support in the Android ecosystem is very inconsistent and varying in quality) Maybe, but my old mom and her old Huawei phone works with zero problems with my brand new OnePlus and whatever mix of phones her friends have. All of them on RCS. The only one that has a problem is a friend with an iPhone that cannot receive images in the size everyone else shares them in. No-one here uses zuckerware - it is all SMS (IE. all RCS except for the few that likes old style Nokias so they get it as a SMS).
eYrKEC2 3y ago
The blue background isn't lock-in -- it's branding and fashion. It's labeling the in-group and the out-group. The cool kids with their Nike shoes and the kids who got their shoes from Payless Shoe Store. The Abercrombie & Fitch wearing kids vs Costco or Walmart wearing kids. The sooner it can be learned that a symbol on a shoe is ... kind of a silly status symbol, the better. Same with blue background or blue check mark.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I fear that's a losing battle. Forming cliques seems to be basic human behavior. It's not so much about the status symbol itself, as it's about being able to "other" people for whatever reason du jour. This seems especially true for children, who lack the maturity to judge social interaction less superficially. Not saying adults are immune to this sort of thing, of course.
- 00deadbeef 3y ago
  When iMessage was introduced it was at a time SMS and MMS incurred extra charges, or, at best, came out of a fixed monthly allowance. Making the user aware of whether they were using SMS/MMS or iMessage was actually a technically important feature, not as a status symbol.
  - kjkjadksj 3y ago
    At the time most everyone was on verizon which gave free in network sms and mms regardless of your plan. Social pressure at least in my area was therefore huge to get on verizon in particular since it was more dominant. Then that stopped once everyone had unlimited texting from any carrier.
tamirzb 3y ago
> On the other hand, I think the long-term sequalae of the blue-green message is to push people to use stand-alone apps like WhatsApp and FB Messenger I find it amusing that in 2024 people in the US still talk about WhatsApp as a future step. Where I'm from already 10+ years ago every single person you know would have a WhatsApp account. With WhatsApp, LINE, WeChat, Telegram etc. I think this is pretty much a solved problem in the rest of the world, really only the US is behind here.
- mettamage 3y ago
  Except for all the US people that keep in touch with Europeans! Source: me (a European) that has a GF in the US. They all get converted to WhatsApp :')
- svachalek 3y ago
  These are all available in the US but it sounds like you have the same problem we do. There are way too many of them and they aren't compatible.
  - skrebbel 3y ago
    In most countries one of these is the one everybody uses, and it works on every phone. In the US, the country is split, mostly by economic class, between people on iMessage and “the rest”. I’m not saying “whatsapp is effectively a monopoly in $country” is great, but it’s better than the US situation. You can buy a $50 phone and use the ubiquitous messaging app.
    - xgl5k 3y ago
      In the US there is only iMessage and regular SMS. SMS is interoperable with iMessage. People are just making a much bigger deal about the green bubbles than they should.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        >People are just making a much bigger deal about the green bubbles than they should. If you didn't grow up Gen Z you don't really understand. It's just another of the endless ways you can get bullied indirectly for being "poor" or "nerdy". Peer pressure is a real phenomenon, and there is a point here when that peer pressure is manufactured by the company itself to get people to buy their stuff.
aednichols 3y ago
It seems like DOJ might force Apple to make separate "SMS" and "iMessage" apps, and perhaps forbid preinstalling iMessage so users have to download it from the App Store when they get a new phone (giving it equal footing with its competitors). This would diffuse the claim that iOS is downgrading Android users within the same app.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I would prefer they just require Apple implement RCS (which they've already agreed to do), and -- crucially -- require feature parity with Android's RCS implementation. Which means standardizing Google's proprietary E2EE extension, and implementing that as well. While I'd prefer being able to install a standalone Android iMessage app over the current situation, I really don't need or want another chat app.
  - Andrex 3y ago
    The only open question (in my mind) is if Google's E2EE extension is intrinsically tied to Jibe. If it wasn't designed to eventually become part of the RCS standard, it could be real messy trying to open it up after the fact while remaining security.
  - aalimov_ 3y ago
    Apple is adopting the Universal profile. If GSMA wants to add E2EE to that profile then they should. I believe that there was some talk of Apple working with GSMA to add or improve encryption on that profile. AFAIK rcs is licensed out to OEMs and so there are a number of different implementations around. In my opinion it would be better for all if there was a secure standard in place - for all to adopt - instead of hoping that everyone works with google to try to get googles proprietary implementation working.
  - aednichols 3y ago
    I’m sure RCS messages would stay green though, so it’s less than clear that your proposal addresses the alleged social lock-in.
AnonHP 3y ago
> The main question I want addressed is: If SMS messages can be directly shown in iMessage, and are not secure, then the argument of not allowing "insecure" 3rd-parties to integrate with iMessage goes out the window. All I want is Android messages to be shown in iMessage. Sure we can make them green, but at least they will be sent over the data network and not SMS. There’s the Messages app and the iMessage protocol — two different things. How would Apple allow messages from Android that are not SMS? That’s by adding RCS support, which is coming later this year. It still won’t have end to end encryption (like the iMessage protocol does) because Apple isn’t going to support (as of now) the proprietary and closed extensions Google has developed for RCS. Any Android message that comes over the data network will have to have some sort of encryption. Otherwise SMS is just fine, as it is today.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > How would Apple allow messages from Android that are not SMS? Quite easily: by releasing a standalone iMessage app on Android. The Beeper folks have shown this of course can be done (even if Apple doesn't like it and blocks them). Doing this would certainly be orders of magnitude easier than implementing RCS. It's quite telling that Apple still wants to maintain iMessage as iOS-only. And if Apple doesn't work with Google to implement the E2EE extension (assuming Google is reasonable about it), that tells us all we need to know (and should have already known): Apple doesn't actually care about their users and user privacy. They just care about their market position and "prestige", and want to maintain these silly "class divisions".
  - aalimov_ 3y ago
    > The Beeper folks have shown this of course can be done (even if Apple doesn't like it and blocks them). They hacked together a solution that “quite easily” exposed your private comms to them.. > It's quite telling that Apple still wants to maintain iMessage as iOS-only. Also iMessage also works on macs and ipads, Apple Watches, and maybe Vision Pro (haven’t looked) > And if Apple doesn't work with Google to implement the E2EE extension (assuming Google is reasonable about it), that tells us all we need to know Apple is implementing the Universal profile. Instead of forcing companies to rely on google, GSMA can improve that profile.
eyelidlessness 3y ago
What I want to know is how there’s any legal basis to compel any business to implement and service specific, arbitrary software features. It would be one thing if there were a law that mandated a class of messaging apps interoperate on a certain standard if they use certain regulated communication networks. But “Apple messages must implement interoperability with Android messages” feels very hamfisted as an expression of that, and doesn’t strike me as legally defensible.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Sure it is. Anti-trust law gives the government (assuming they prevail in court) broad authority to require that a specific company take specific, tailored actions that the government believes will make it so the company can't abuse its market position to harm consumers anymore. There's a long history of this, with Microsoft being a fairly recent, famous example.
  - eyelidlessness 3y ago
    I think you’re responding to a more basic question than I posed. I think I made it clear I understand the government can compel actions… > that the government believes will make it so the company can't abuse its market position to harm consumers anymore … and that I don’t believe “Apple must support Android messages” is that. Since you mention Microsoft, I think it would be equally indefensible if the government had ordered “Microsoft must create a Windows Subsystem for Linux” as a remedy for their market abuse. Or a much closer analogy, “Microsoft must create a Windows Subsystem for Macintosh”. I would find it much more compelling if the order were something like “Microsoft must maintain stable interfaces for Linux and/or Macintosh vendors to produce a functioning Windows Subsystem”. But it seems pretty absurd to me that the government could just mandate arbitrary labor on arbitrary products on behalf of their competitors.
  - jupp0r 3y ago
    In all of these arguments, I haven't heard about any harmed consumer yet. Half the things Apple is accused of actually benefit customers, at least in my opinion.
kelnos 3y ago
> This creates a disdain for SMS, and anyone who uses it over iMessage. It is such a strong feeling, that having green messages makes you "uncool", especially in the younger crowd. The thing is, I think it's perfectly fine, reasonable, and correct to have a disdain for SMS. The problem is that people transfer this disdain onto anyone they are "forced" to communicate with over SMS. > I think the long-term sequalae of the blue-green message is to push people to use stand-alone apps... Defaults matter. The friction to using iMessage on a brand-new iPhone is zero: it's right there, front and center, and doesn't require anyone to download anything new or confer with family and friends to figure out what the "right" other messaging platform is. > ... like WhatsApp and FB Messenger Oof, no thanks. I'd rather not be pushed toward using messaging apps owned by a company known to do shady things with user data. I've managed to get a few friends and group chats off those platforms and onto something else, but unfortunately there are still a few on them that I don't want to just cut ties with.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
The annoying thing about any other messaging service except SMS is that if you're out in BFE, as long as you can ping a tower, you can get a message out ... or in.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
danaris 3y ago
> The blue background on messages sent between two iMessage users has to be one of the most brilliant vendor lock-in strategies. It is an artificial form of discrimination. This is, always has been, and will always remain bullshit. The problem isn't the blue vs green background. It would be the same if the backgrounds were purple and gold, red and gray, or just both blue. The problem is the different capabilities between SMS and iMessage. And because those capabilities are different, it is useful and productive to communicate that in a clear, but unobtrusive way—like making their message bubbles different colors. Apple doesn't control the featureset of SMS.
- sevagh 3y ago
  Well, sure, "green and blue background" is a proxy for "SMS capabilites and iMessage capabilities". People aren't protesting the actual primary colors of green or blue.
  - 00deadbeef 3y ago
    And when iMessage was introduced it was at a time SMS and MMS incurred extra charges, or, at best, came out of a fixed monthly allowance. Making the user aware of whether they were using SMS/MMS or iMessage was actually a technically important feature so the user could understand if/how they would be charged.
- slavik81 3y ago
  > Apple doesn't control the featureset of SMS. Interoperability doesn't have to be through SMS. Apple could allow other developers to implement the iMessage protocol.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  > Apple doesn't control the featureset of SMS. If they control how SMS is received and displayed, they absolutely do control the featureset of SMS. On Android it's trivial to use different SMS apps, the receiver gets to decide how, if at all, they'll be separated.
  - 3y ago
harkinian 3y ago
It's not artificial. SMS is terrible on its own, and that's none of Apple's fault. It's not like Android users are getting together and happily having SMS/RCS group chats.
- dimator 3y ago
  > It's not artificial. SMS is terrible on its own, and that's none of Apple's fault. It's not like Android users are getting together and happily having SMS/RCS group chats. What? RCS is a real thing that works between Android users. It is Apple's choice to not support (or contribute to it or improve the standard) it because it locks people in and creates a very cozy, very real in-group sentiment.
  - harkinian 3y ago
    RCS doesn't work well in practice. Android group chats happen on WhatsApp, not on RCS.
    - Drew_ 3y ago
      RCS works pretty well and no, my Android group chats don't happen on WhatsApp.
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      What? Even my old mom uses RCS with zero problems. It is a solved problem and Apple is dragging their feet exactly because of this.
      - harkinian 3y ago
        Does your old mom use RCS in large group chats?
        Dah00n 3y ago
        Size isn't the issue, but she does use it yes. With friends scattered throughout Europe.
maest 3y ago
> that person will limit the messaging functionality Don't have an iPhone -- what functionality do they limit?
- msdrigg 3y ago
  - reacting to messages/replying to messages - sending messages over data (obviously)
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    questions: "reacting to messages"
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      it's most similar to upvoting, but with more emoji. So imagine if HN had an upvote on IOS, but instead on android it left a full message saying >__MatrixMan__ reacted to this comment with "Upvote" Much clunkier. his was fixed with RCS, fortunately, but that was the norm for some decade or so when talking with iPhones.
      - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
        Oh, do iPhone users also see those messages when an android user is in the chat? I had assumed that reactions worked fine for them and they were unaware that their iPhone was making them look like a bit of a buffoon to the rest of us.
- squeaky-clean 3y ago
  It falls back to plain ol SMS/MMS. So any features newer than 2008 or so.
- RussianCow 3y ago
  The main thing I miss about having an iPhone is the ability to send full resolution pictures and videos over iMessage. In practice, SMS and MMS are seriously limited in the size of files they can send.
samstave 3y ago
Agree, but its also more importantly the (...) bubbles that people have become addicted to. Green doesnt show that. So when you see (...) and then it goes away and comes back a bunch of times - peoples fear and anxieties project into that (...) -- and its that fear dopamine that people are addicted to wrt to gree/blue... where people are annoyed at green when they basically send a UDP txt - whereas blue is a TCP txt, so to speak...
00deadbeef 3y ago
> This creates a disdain for SMS, and anyone who uses it over iMessage. It is such a strong feeling, that having green messages makes you "uncool", especially in the younger crowd. When iMessage was introduced it was at a time SMS and MMS incurred extra charges, or, at best, came out of a fixed monthly allowance. Making the user aware of whether they were using SMS/MMS or iMessage was actually a technically important feature, not a way to shame Android users.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  emphasis on "was". but we're much farther away from those times than we are to when sms more or less became unlimited on every major network.
  - 00deadbeef 3y ago
    Is there any reason to change the colours now?
    - alt227 3y ago
      Yes, because kids are literally getting bullied because of it.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
odiroot 3y ago
This strategy doesn't work in all the other more sophisticated markets, where WhatsApp/Telegram/FB Messenger/etc are the most popular communication apps. Time and again seems to be US-only curiosity.
taf2 3y ago
I’d also add that because the carriers SMS is so terrible it was easy for Apple…
dec0dedab0de 3y ago
You cannot separate SMS messages from iMessages (to my knowledge) I have only had an iphone for a few months, and I haven’t tried it yet, but when I enabled imessage I had the option of using an email address instead of my phone number. and From an android users perspective texting an iphone user is terrible, because they are incapable of sending quality photos, i suspect they just default to over compression for mms …on a side note, the overall iphone experience is not great, everything just feels like it is trying to stop me from doing what i want. Not that android was all that better, but I definitely felt a bit more free with even simple things like how copy/paste works.
- 14 3y ago
  I’m actually thinking I will switch after my iPhone 8 packs it in. iPhone is now about extracting money not providing the best phone. Every app has an in app purchase. Let us have root to our iPhones so we can install open source projects.
14 3y ago
How about when you send a video or photos between iPhone and android the quality is abysmal. That is apples doing.
downrightmike 3y ago
SMS is inferior to imessage, and less secure, so color coding helps
metrognome 3y ago
Remember everyone, your bubbles are green because you have an iPhone, not because the person you are texting has an Android.
foogazi 3y ago
> You cannot separate SMS messages from iMessages (to my knowledge) You can message iCloud accounts without a phone number using only the email address
minroot 3y ago
god damn, just use whatsapp
8fingerlouie 3y ago
I find this whole debate over what is essentially the background color of chat messages to be rather silly. iPhones implement SMS/MMS, which are both standards set forth by the GSM specification. That's the level of message exchange the underlying protocol offers. RCS is the "next gen" SMS, which is also being implemented. SMS/MMS/RCS does not support E2E encryption. Apple then offers iMessage as a seperate service, on par with WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, etc. It is literally just a messaging service running over the internet, using some form of identifier to identify you, which might be your phone number, like signal, or your email. iMessage also offers proper E2E encryption, which is hit or miss with competitors. The challenge with E2E encryption is peer discovery. iMessage has made encryption easy, to the point that nobody thinks about it, but that's really what the blue bubble indicates, that your message is E2E encrypted. There is literally no monopoly there other than Apple offering the superior tool. There is open communication with other phones, using SMS/MMS, which is the lowest common denominator when you're talking phones. That is literally the level of capability you can guarantee when talking over GSM.
- TheKarateKid 3y ago
  > I find this whole debate over what is essentially the background color of chat messages to be rather silly. Are you aware that it's actually so serious that Apple officially uses it in their marketing? They quite literally say "iMessages are blue. So you're not." and most notably: "SMS texters will be green with envy." https://beast-of-traal.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/2022/01/imessages-apple-site.png https://beast-of-traal.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/2022/01/i...
  - alt227 3y ago
    Any evidence of that image in context? It really doesnt look like it abides by Apples strict design standards, so unless proven otherwise Im inclined to think it is fake.
    - dqv 3y ago
      It's real. https://web.archive.org/web/20140708162715/http://www.apple.com/ios/messages/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140708162715/http://www.apple....

lvl102 3y ago

That’s not Apple’s doing. They introduced iMessage as a direct result of telecom companies charging customers for text messages a la carte. If DoJ has issues with those blue bubbles then they should’ve sued telecom back then. This entire suit is a joke.

Workaccount2 3y ago
The problem isn't the messaging service, the problem is the artificial hardware requirement in order to use it. Second would be the inability to make another app the primary/default once you have said hardware.
- lvl102 3y ago
  That’s not what antitrust is about. Functionally speaking, you would not be able to prove there’s economic harm. Apple’s share of smartphone does not even compare to MSFT’s share of PC back in 90/00s.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    Anti-trust law has gone through a variety of interpretations over the long history of its existence, and I think your characterization of it is incorrect, even under today's recent interpretations. This suit seems to follow the interpretation of: "it is bad if consumers are being harmed in some way". Having a monopoly position via market share is not a necessary condition for that to happen.
    - lvl102 3y ago
      How were consumers harmed from iMessage? Apple doesn’t stop people from downloading Whatsapp and hundreds of other communication apps. The only semi-valid argument they have is the app store. And even that is 10-20% chance considering Apple’s market share. Even though this is DoJ, this is all a part of Lina Khan’s naive crusade against NATURAL monopolies. Just because she doesn’t understand economics and how the real world operates in 2024.
      - tristan957 3y ago
        I am a consumer that was harmed just this week because I wasn't added to a group chat of only iPhone users because I have an Android device.
        edvinbesic 3y ago
        Doesn't really seem like a platform issue per se since your friends could have easily included you just fine, but chose not to.
        3y ago

shuckles 3y ago

My guess is even if iMessage bubbles were green, the sheer horribleness of SMS would still make communicating with Android a second class experience in a way everyone found frustrating. Sure RCS might make that better (I’m skeptical — standards support in the Android ecosystem is very inconsistent and varying in quality), but it’s a decade late. The basic argument is: Apple can’t make anything better for iPhone users until they can make it a standard for every mobile computing platform and competing service provider. About as absurd as it sounds.

Dah00n 3y ago
>Sure RCS might make that better (I’m skeptical — standards support in the Android ecosystem is very inconsistent and varying in quality) Maybe, but my old mom and her old Huawei phone works with zero problems with my brand new OnePlus and whatever mix of phones her friends have. All of them on RCS. The only one that has a problem is a friend with an iPhone that cannot receive images in the size everyone else shares them in. No-one here uses zuckerware - it is all SMS (IE. all RCS except for the few that likes old style Nokias so they get it as a SMS).

eYrKEC2 3y ago

The blue background isn't lock-in -- it's branding and fashion. It's labeling the in-group and the out-group. The cool kids with their Nike shoes and the kids who got their shoes from Payless Shoe Store. The Abercrombie & Fitch wearing kids vs Costco or Walmart wearing kids. The sooner it can be learned that a symbol on a shoe is ... kind of a silly status symbol, the better. Same with blue background or blue check mark.

kelnos 3y ago
I fear that's a losing battle. Forming cliques seems to be basic human behavior. It's not so much about the status symbol itself, as it's about being able to "other" people for whatever reason du jour. This seems especially true for children, who lack the maturity to judge social interaction less superficially. Not saying adults are immune to this sort of thing, of course.
00deadbeef 3y ago
When iMessage was introduced it was at a time SMS and MMS incurred extra charges, or, at best, came out of a fixed monthly allowance. Making the user aware of whether they were using SMS/MMS or iMessage was actually a technically important feature, not as a status symbol.
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  At the time most everyone was on verizon which gave free in network sms and mms regardless of your plan. Social pressure at least in my area was therefore huge to get on verizon in particular since it was more dominant. Then that stopped once everyone had unlimited texting from any carrier.

tamirzb 3y ago

> On the other hand, I think the long-term sequalae of the blue-green message is to push people to use stand-alone apps like WhatsApp and FB Messenger I find it amusing that in 2024 people in the US still talk about WhatsApp as a future step. Where I'm from already 10+ years ago every single person you know would have a WhatsApp account. With WhatsApp, LINE, WeChat, Telegram etc. I think this is pretty much a solved problem in the rest of the world, really only the US is behind here.

mettamage 3y ago
Except for all the US people that keep in touch with Europeans! Source: me (a European) that has a GF in the US. They all get converted to WhatsApp :')
svachalek 3y ago
These are all available in the US but it sounds like you have the same problem we do. There are way too many of them and they aren't compatible.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  In most countries one of these is the one everybody uses, and it works on every phone. In the US, the country is split, mostly by economic class, between people on iMessage and “the rest”. I’m not saying “whatsapp is effectively a monopoly in $country” is great, but it’s better than the US situation. You can buy a $50 phone and use the ubiquitous messaging app.
  - xgl5k 3y ago
    In the US there is only iMessage and regular SMS. SMS is interoperable with iMessage. People are just making a much bigger deal about the green bubbles than they should.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >People are just making a much bigger deal about the green bubbles than they should. If you didn't grow up Gen Z you don't really understand. It's just another of the endless ways you can get bullied indirectly for being "poor" or "nerdy". Peer pressure is a real phenomenon, and there is a point here when that peer pressure is manufactured by the company itself to get people to buy their stuff.

aednichols 3y ago

It seems like DOJ might force Apple to make separate "SMS" and "iMessage" apps, and perhaps forbid preinstalling iMessage so users have to download it from the App Store when they get a new phone (giving it equal footing with its competitors). This would diffuse the claim that iOS is downgrading Android users within the same app.

kelnos 3y ago
I would prefer they just require Apple implement RCS (which they've already agreed to do), and -- crucially -- require feature parity with Android's RCS implementation. Which means standardizing Google's proprietary E2EE extension, and implementing that as well. While I'd prefer being able to install a standalone Android iMessage app over the current situation, I really don't need or want another chat app.
- Andrex 3y ago
  The only open question (in my mind) is if Google's E2EE extension is intrinsically tied to Jibe. If it wasn't designed to eventually become part of the RCS standard, it could be real messy trying to open it up after the fact while remaining security.
- aalimov_ 3y ago
  Apple is adopting the Universal profile. If GSMA wants to add E2EE to that profile then they should. I believe that there was some talk of Apple working with GSMA to add or improve encryption on that profile. AFAIK rcs is licensed out to OEMs and so there are a number of different implementations around. In my opinion it would be better for all if there was a secure standard in place - for all to adopt - instead of hoping that everyone works with google to try to get googles proprietary implementation working.
- aednichols 3y ago
  I’m sure RCS messages would stay green though, so it’s less than clear that your proposal addresses the alleged social lock-in.

AnonHP 3y ago

> The main question I want addressed is: If SMS messages can be directly shown in iMessage, and are not secure, then the argument of not allowing "insecure" 3rd-parties to integrate with iMessage goes out the window. All I want is Android messages to be shown in iMessage. Sure we can make them green, but at least they will be sent over the data network and not SMS. There’s the Messages app and the iMessage protocol — two different things. How would Apple allow messages from Android that are not SMS? That’s by adding RCS support, which is coming later this year. It still won’t have end to end encryption (like the iMessage protocol does) because Apple isn’t going to support (as of now) the proprietary and closed extensions Google has developed for RCS. Any Android message that comes over the data network will have to have some sort of encryption. Otherwise SMS is just fine, as it is today.

kelnos 3y ago
> How would Apple allow messages from Android that are not SMS? Quite easily: by releasing a standalone iMessage app on Android. The Beeper folks have shown this of course can be done (even if Apple doesn't like it and blocks them). Doing this would certainly be orders of magnitude easier than implementing RCS. It's quite telling that Apple still wants to maintain iMessage as iOS-only. And if Apple doesn't work with Google to implement the E2EE extension (assuming Google is reasonable about it), that tells us all we need to know (and should have already known): Apple doesn't actually care about their users and user privacy. They just care about their market position and "prestige", and want to maintain these silly "class divisions".
- aalimov_ 3y ago
  > The Beeper folks have shown this of course can be done (even if Apple doesn't like it and blocks them). They hacked together a solution that “quite easily” exposed your private comms to them.. > It's quite telling that Apple still wants to maintain iMessage as iOS-only. Also iMessage also works on macs and ipads, Apple Watches, and maybe Vision Pro (haven’t looked) > And if Apple doesn't work with Google to implement the E2EE extension (assuming Google is reasonable about it), that tells us all we need to know Apple is implementing the Universal profile. Instead of forcing companies to rely on google, GSMA can improve that profile.

eyelidlessness 3y ago

What I want to know is how there’s any legal basis to compel any business to implement and service specific, arbitrary software features. It would be one thing if there were a law that mandated a class of messaging apps interoperate on a certain standard if they use certain regulated communication networks. But “Apple messages must implement interoperability with Android messages” feels very hamfisted as an expression of that, and doesn’t strike me as legally defensible.

kelnos 3y ago
Sure it is. Anti-trust law gives the government (assuming they prevail in court) broad authority to require that a specific company take specific, tailored actions that the government believes will make it so the company can't abuse its market position to harm consumers anymore. There's a long history of this, with Microsoft being a fairly recent, famous example.
- eyelidlessness 3y ago
  I think you’re responding to a more basic question than I posed. I think I made it clear I understand the government can compel actions… > that the government believes will make it so the company can't abuse its market position to harm consumers anymore … and that I don’t believe “Apple must support Android messages” is that. Since you mention Microsoft, I think it would be equally indefensible if the government had ordered “Microsoft must create a Windows Subsystem for Linux” as a remedy for their market abuse. Or a much closer analogy, “Microsoft must create a Windows Subsystem for Macintosh”. I would find it much more compelling if the order were something like “Microsoft must maintain stable interfaces for Linux and/or Macintosh vendors to produce a functioning Windows Subsystem”. But it seems pretty absurd to me that the government could just mandate arbitrary labor on arbitrary products on behalf of their competitors.
- jupp0r 3y ago
  In all of these arguments, I haven't heard about any harmed consumer yet. Half the things Apple is accused of actually benefit customers, at least in my opinion.

kelnos 3y ago

> This creates a disdain for SMS, and anyone who uses it over iMessage. It is such a strong feeling, that having green messages makes you "uncool", especially in the younger crowd. The thing is, I think it's perfectly fine, reasonable, and correct to have a disdain for SMS. The problem is that people transfer this disdain onto anyone they are "forced" to communicate with over SMS. > I think the long-term sequalae of the blue-green message is to push people to use stand-alone apps... Defaults matter. The friction to using iMessage on a brand-new iPhone is zero: it's right there, front and center, and doesn't require anyone to download anything new or confer with family and friends to figure out what the "right" other messaging platform is. > ... like WhatsApp and FB Messenger Oof, no thanks. I'd rather not be pushed toward using messaging apps owned by a company known to do shady things with user data. I've managed to get a few friends and group chats off those platforms and onto something else, but unfortunately there are still a few on them that I don't want to just cut ties with.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

The annoying thing about any other messaging service except SMS is that if you're out in BFE, as long as you can ping a tower, you can get a message out ... or in.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

danaris 3y ago

> The blue background on messages sent between two iMessage users has to be one of the most brilliant vendor lock-in strategies. It is an artificial form of discrimination. This is, always has been, and will always remain bullshit. The problem isn't the blue vs green background. It would be the same if the backgrounds were purple and gold, red and gray, or just both blue. The problem is the different capabilities between SMS and iMessage. And because those capabilities are different, it is useful and productive to communicate that in a clear, but unobtrusive way—like making their message bubbles different colors. Apple doesn't control the featureset of SMS.

sevagh 3y ago
Well, sure, "green and blue background" is a proxy for "SMS capabilites and iMessage capabilities". People aren't protesting the actual primary colors of green or blue.
- 00deadbeef 3y ago
  And when iMessage was introduced it was at a time SMS and MMS incurred extra charges, or, at best, came out of a fixed monthly allowance. Making the user aware of whether they were using SMS/MMS or iMessage was actually a technically important feature so the user could understand if/how they would be charged.
slavik81 3y ago
> Apple doesn't control the featureset of SMS. Interoperability doesn't have to be through SMS. Apple could allow other developers to implement the iMessage protocol.
brailsafe 3y ago
> Apple doesn't control the featureset of SMS. If they control how SMS is received and displayed, they absolutely do control the featureset of SMS. On Android it's trivial to use different SMS apps, the receiver gets to decide how, if at all, they'll be separated.
- 3y ago

harkinian 3y ago

It's not artificial. SMS is terrible on its own, and that's none of Apple's fault. It's not like Android users are getting together and happily having SMS/RCS group chats.

dimator 3y ago
> It's not artificial. SMS is terrible on its own, and that's none of Apple's fault. It's not like Android users are getting together and happily having SMS/RCS group chats. What? RCS is a real thing that works between Android users. It is Apple's choice to not support (or contribute to it or improve the standard) it because it locks people in and creates a very cozy, very real in-group sentiment.
- harkinian 3y ago
  RCS doesn't work well in practice. Android group chats happen on WhatsApp, not on RCS.
  - Drew_ 3y ago
    RCS works pretty well and no, my Android group chats don't happen on WhatsApp.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    What? Even my old mom uses RCS with zero problems. It is a solved problem and Apple is dragging their feet exactly because of this.
    - harkinian 3y ago
      Does your old mom use RCS in large group chats?
      - Dah00n 3y ago
        Size isn't the issue, but she does use it yes. With friends scattered throughout Europe.

maest 3y ago

> that person will limit the messaging functionality Don't have an iPhone -- what functionality do they limit?

msdrigg 3y ago
- reacting to messages/replying to messages - sending messages over data (obviously)
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  questions: "reacting to messages"
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    it's most similar to upvoting, but with more emoji. So imagine if HN had an upvote on IOS, but instead on android it left a full message saying >__MatrixMan__ reacted to this comment with "Upvote" Much clunkier. his was fixed with RCS, fortunately, but that was the norm for some decade or so when talking with iPhones.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      Oh, do iPhone users also see those messages when an android user is in the chat? I had assumed that reactions worked fine for them and they were unaware that their iPhone was making them look like a bit of a buffoon to the rest of us.
squeaky-clean 3y ago
It falls back to plain ol SMS/MMS. So any features newer than 2008 or so.
RussianCow 3y ago
The main thing I miss about having an iPhone is the ability to send full resolution pictures and videos over iMessage. In practice, SMS and MMS are seriously limited in the size of files they can send.

samstave 3y ago

Agree, but its also more importantly the (...) bubbles that people have become addicted to. Green doesnt show that. So when you see (...) and then it goes away and comes back a bunch of times - peoples fear and anxieties project into that (...) -- and its that fear dopamine that people are addicted to wrt to gree/blue... where people are annoyed at green when they basically send a UDP txt - whereas blue is a TCP txt, so to speak...

00deadbeef 3y ago

> This creates a disdain for SMS, and anyone who uses it over iMessage. It is such a strong feeling, that having green messages makes you "uncool", especially in the younger crowd. When iMessage was introduced it was at a time SMS and MMS incurred extra charges, or, at best, came out of a fixed monthly allowance. Making the user aware of whether they were using SMS/MMS or iMessage was actually a technically important feature, not a way to shame Android users.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
emphasis on "was". but we're much farther away from those times than we are to when sms more or less became unlimited on every major network.
- 00deadbeef 3y ago
  Is there any reason to change the colours now?
  - alt227 3y ago
    Yes, because kids are literally getting bullied because of it.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

odiroot 3y ago

This strategy doesn't work in all the other more sophisticated markets, where WhatsApp/Telegram/FB Messenger/etc are the most popular communication apps. Time and again seems to be US-only curiosity.

taf2 3y ago

I’d also add that because the carriers SMS is so terrible it was easy for Apple…

dec0dedab0de 3y ago

You cannot separate SMS messages from iMessages (to my knowledge) I have only had an iphone for a few months, and I haven’t tried it yet, but when I enabled imessage I had the option of using an email address instead of my phone number. and From an android users perspective texting an iphone user is terrible, because they are incapable of sending quality photos, i suspect they just default to over compression for mms …on a side note, the overall iphone experience is not great, everything just feels like it is trying to stop me from doing what i want. Not that android was all that better, but I definitely felt a bit more free with even simple things like how copy/paste works.

14 3y ago
I’m actually thinking I will switch after my iPhone 8 packs it in. iPhone is now about extracting money not providing the best phone. Every app has an in app purchase. Let us have root to our iPhones so we can install open source projects.

14 3y ago

How about when you send a video or photos between iPhone and android the quality is abysmal. That is apples doing.

downrightmike 3y ago

SMS is inferior to imessage, and less secure, so color coding helps

metrognome 3y ago

Remember everyone, your bubbles are green because you have an iPhone, not because the person you are texting has an Android.

foogazi 3y ago

> You cannot separate SMS messages from iMessages (to my knowledge) You can message iCloud accounts without a phone number using only the email address

minroot 3y ago

god damn, just use whatsapp

8fingerlouie 3y ago

I find this whole debate over what is essentially the background color of chat messages to be rather silly. iPhones implement SMS/MMS, which are both standards set forth by the GSM specification. That's the level of message exchange the underlying protocol offers. RCS is the "next gen" SMS, which is also being implemented. SMS/MMS/RCS does not support E2E encryption. Apple then offers iMessage as a seperate service, on par with WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, etc. It is literally just a messaging service running over the internet, using some form of identifier to identify you, which might be your phone number, like signal, or your email. iMessage also offers proper E2E encryption, which is hit or miss with competitors. The challenge with E2E encryption is peer discovery. iMessage has made encryption easy, to the point that nobody thinks about it, but that's really what the blue bubble indicates, that your message is E2E encrypted. There is literally no monopoly there other than Apple offering the superior tool. There is open communication with other phones, using SMS/MMS, which is the lowest common denominator when you're talking phones. That is literally the level of capability you can guarantee when talking over GSM.

TheKarateKid 3y ago
> I find this whole debate over what is essentially the background color of chat messages to be rather silly. Are you aware that it's actually so serious that Apple officially uses it in their marketing? They quite literally say "iMessages are blue. So you're not." and most notably: "SMS texters will be green with envy." https://beast-of-traal.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/2022/01/imessages-apple-site.png https://beast-of-traal.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/2022/01/i...
- alt227 3y ago
  Any evidence of that image in context? It really doesnt look like it abides by Apples strict design standards, so unless proven otherwise Im inclined to think it is fake.
  - dqv 3y ago
    It's real. https://web.archive.org/web/20140708162715/http://www.apple.com/ios/messages/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140708162715/http://www.apple....