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iMessage is the most egregious monopolistic tool in Apple's garden. If the DOJ accomplishes nothing else besides forcing Apple to open up iMessage, it will be

iMessage is the most egregious monopolistic tool in Apple's garden. If the DOJ accomplishes nothing else besides forcing Apple to open up iMessage, it will be a victory. The lock-in of having functional communication with your friends and family is insane. Take that away and it becomes almost a no-brainier for people to consider competing devices. And no, nobody with an iPhone is interested in switching to whatever messaging app you beg them to use, just so they can message you.

LargeWu 3y ago
It already works with SMS, though. You can choose to use 3rd party apps like WhatsApp. I fail to see how users are meaningfully "locked-in" any more than an android
- supergeek133 3y ago
  Your average iphone user has no idea what this is. All the know is "android makes the bubbles green and iMessage doesn't work as well with them, or at all".
- pradn 3y ago
  Teens get bullied if they show up as green bubbles in group chats. I've had people tell me they wouldn't want to show up as green bubbles to potential romantic partners. The iMessage lock-in effects are real.
AlexandrB 3y ago
I totally don't get this perspective. There are so many competing messaging platforms and they all work reasonably well on iOS. Because my various family and friend groups use different messaging apps I use all the following: WhatsApp, Signal, SMS, iMessage, Viber, and once in a while Facebook Messenger. I would say iMessage is kind of middle of the pack here. If I had to pick a favourite it's probably WhatsApp, but unfortunately it's owned by Meta - so I try to use Signal whenever I can. What's so special about iMessage that people think it's a monopolistic tool?
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  Its the default iPhone messenger and it works really well when messaging your friends and family, who all also have iphones because it works really well when messaging your friends and family. HN chronically forgets that the average american cell phone user might know what iMessage actually is. Nevermind even having the faintest idea what a WhatsApp is. Or ever even heard of signal.
- supergeek133 3y ago
  Are your various friends/family all tech-y people? My "normal" friends and family are majority iPhone users. I'm Android. I "literally ruin" their group texts. I've seen people actually reject relationships because they don't date people with "green bubbles". Don't even get me started about work group texts. I know restaurants where some of the servers have group iMessage chats with customers for early notification about nightly specials, Android users literally can't be added. Likely not maliciously, but this has created almost a "second/lower class" of phone users that encompasses ~50% of the country.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    > Are your various friends/family all tech-y people? Not at all. A few of my friends are techies and they use Android/iPhone about 50/50. Family is mixed as well. No one in family uses iMessage. > I've seen people actually reject relationships because they don't date people with "green bubbles". This seems like a feature, not a bug. I don't think you want to date someone who makes important life choices based on Apple marketing. Edit: Is this a "Bay Area" problem or something? Or maybe a "young people" problem? I just can't imagine caring about whether someone messages me with "blue" or "green" text bubbles.
    - supergeek133 3y ago
      I'm not saying I run into these people, and I agree with your take. > Not at all. A few of my friends are techies and they use Android/iPhone about 50/50. Family is mixed as well. No one in family uses iMessage. I would bet money this is the opposite of the majority experience.
jonwinstanley 3y ago
How is this a monopoly though? Everyone is free to move their family to WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook messenger...
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  Sure, just set up the seminar to convince people to stop using what already works great so that they can include just you in their group messaging.
  - jonwinstanley 3y ago
    Haha agreed! I'm not saying it's easy - but I don't see how it's a monopoly
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      antitrust law considers things like substitutability. It refers to the degree to which consumers can replace a good or service with a close alternative, considering factors like price, quality, and performance. Conversely, if there are no close substitutes and consumers are less likely to switch, the relevant market might be narrower. If the barriers to switching are high, the availability of an alternative may not be enough to let a monopolist off the hook.
  - khazhoux 3y ago
    > what already works great Apple's original sin: making great software that works. It's no surprise this makes other HW and SW companies envious, and everyone wants (and asks the DOJ to secure for them) a piece of the pie.
mrweasel 3y ago
> If the DOJ accomplishes nothing else besides forcing Apple to open up iMessage, it will be a victory. Couldn't Apple just make the shittiest Android iMessage client anyone could ever imaging and the go "See, there it is, nobody wants it" My take is that Apple has engineered iMessage in such a way that if anyone could just use it, then Apple would be stuck with a massive bill for running the infrastructure, without any benefits. They could in theory charge people a small amount to cover the cost, but that would also just keep people of the platform. WhatsApp made next to nothing when they attempted to charge people and Signal rely on donations. There's no way to push a for-pay messaging app. iMessage being Apple only isn't what keeps me from buying an Android phone (Google manages to do that all by themselves). I already have three messaging apps on my phone, and four on my laptop, there's plenty of choice on that front.
_ea1k 3y ago
Agreed. I remember seeing a YT review of the camera on the S23U and really raving about it. Then he said that he wouldn't use it, because his family and friends won't let him... said they practically staged an "intervention" last time he used a device without imessage. This wasn't a small YouTuber. Among teens, the pressure is even more real. imessage is being used to drive adoption in a really bizarre way.

LargeWu 3y ago

It already works with SMS, though. You can choose to use 3rd party apps like WhatsApp. I fail to see how users are meaningfully "locked-in" any more than an android

supergeek133 3y ago
Your average iphone user has no idea what this is. All the know is "android makes the bubbles green and iMessage doesn't work as well with them, or at all".
pradn 3y ago
Teens get bullied if they show up as green bubbles in group chats. I've had people tell me they wouldn't want to show up as green bubbles to potential romantic partners. The iMessage lock-in effects are real.

AlexandrB 3y ago

I totally don't get this perspective. There are so many competing messaging platforms and they all work reasonably well on iOS. Because my various family and friend groups use different messaging apps I use all the following: WhatsApp, Signal, SMS, iMessage, Viber, and once in a while Facebook Messenger. I would say iMessage is kind of middle of the pack here. If I had to pick a favourite it's probably WhatsApp, but unfortunately it's owned by Meta - so I try to use Signal whenever I can. What's so special about iMessage that people think it's a monopolistic tool?

Workaccount2 3y ago
Its the default iPhone messenger and it works really well when messaging your friends and family, who all also have iphones because it works really well when messaging your friends and family. HN chronically forgets that the average american cell phone user might know what iMessage actually is. Nevermind even having the faintest idea what a WhatsApp is. Or ever even heard of signal.
supergeek133 3y ago
Are your various friends/family all tech-y people? My "normal" friends and family are majority iPhone users. I'm Android. I "literally ruin" their group texts. I've seen people actually reject relationships because they don't date people with "green bubbles". Don't even get me started about work group texts. I know restaurants where some of the servers have group iMessage chats with customers for early notification about nightly specials, Android users literally can't be added. Likely not maliciously, but this has created almost a "second/lower class" of phone users that encompasses ~50% of the country.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  > Are your various friends/family all tech-y people? Not at all. A few of my friends are techies and they use Android/iPhone about 50/50. Family is mixed as well. No one in family uses iMessage. > I've seen people actually reject relationships because they don't date people with "green bubbles". This seems like a feature, not a bug. I don't think you want to date someone who makes important life choices based on Apple marketing. Edit: Is this a "Bay Area" problem or something? Or maybe a "young people" problem? I just can't imagine caring about whether someone messages me with "blue" or "green" text bubbles.
  - supergeek133 3y ago
    I'm not saying I run into these people, and I agree with your take. > Not at all. A few of my friends are techies and they use Android/iPhone about 50/50. Family is mixed as well. No one in family uses iMessage. I would bet money this is the opposite of the majority experience.

jonwinstanley 3y ago

How is this a monopoly though? Everyone is free to move their family to WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Facebook messenger...

Workaccount2 3y ago
Sure, just set up the seminar to convince people to stop using what already works great so that they can include just you in their group messaging.
- jonwinstanley 3y ago
  Haha agreed! I'm not saying it's easy - but I don't see how it's a monopoly
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    antitrust law considers things like substitutability. It refers to the degree to which consumers can replace a good or service with a close alternative, considering factors like price, quality, and performance. Conversely, if there are no close substitutes and consumers are less likely to switch, the relevant market might be narrower. If the barriers to switching are high, the availability of an alternative may not be enough to let a monopolist off the hook.
- khazhoux 3y ago
  > what already works great Apple's original sin: making great software that works. It's no surprise this makes other HW and SW companies envious, and everyone wants (and asks the DOJ to secure for them) a piece of the pie.

mrweasel 3y ago

> If the DOJ accomplishes nothing else besides forcing Apple to open up iMessage, it will be a victory. Couldn't Apple just make the shittiest Android iMessage client anyone could ever imaging and the go "See, there it is, nobody wants it" My take is that Apple has engineered iMessage in such a way that if anyone could just use it, then Apple would be stuck with a massive bill for running the infrastructure, without any benefits. They could in theory charge people a small amount to cover the cost, but that would also just keep people of the platform. WhatsApp made next to nothing when they attempted to charge people and Signal rely on donations. There's no way to push a for-pay messaging app. iMessage being Apple only isn't what keeps me from buying an Android phone (Google manages to do that all by themselves). I already have three messaging apps on my phone, and four on my laptop, there's plenty of choice on that front.

_ea1k 3y ago

Agreed. I remember seeing a YT review of the camera on the S23U and really raving about it. Then he said that he wouldn't use it, because his family and friends won't let him... said they practically staged an "intervention" last time he used a device without imessage. This wasn't a small YouTuber. Among teens, the pressure is even more real. imessage is being used to drive adoption in a really bizarre way.