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It looked surprisingly pretty weak to my non lawyer eyes. I mean I fully understand that apple business practices are building a moat through highly integrated

It looked surprisingly pretty weak to my non lawyer eyes. I mean I fully understand that apple business practices are building a moat through highly integrated software but its almost a feature for their system and you buy it knowing that. It feels like it goes back to Android vs Apple approach to their ecosystem.

ethbr1 3y ago
> that apple business practices are building a moat through highly integrated software To me, this is the crux of modern antitrust, and the EU absolutely got it correct at a high level. In simplest form -- doing certain things as an almost-monopoly and/or extremely large business should be illegal, while doing them as a smaller company should not be. The scale of global businesses, in low-competition industries, allows them to engineer moats that are deeply injurious to fair competition, to their own profit and the detriment of everyone else. > you buy it knowing that. I think it's debatable whether the average iPhone customer buys it, knowing it allows Apple to heavily tax all AppStore developers.
- ecshafer 3y ago
  I don't consider myself an Apple fan, but Apple users definitely buy into the idea that "it just works" compared to Android or Windows, which the highly integrated software is a key component of.
  - Y-bar 3y ago
    I’m an Apple user (own iPad, iPhone, Mac Studio, among other devices) since the 90:s and I buy into that. But I _also_ think Apple has grown way too much into a bully and way too much into disallowing third party developers to do things Apple allows themselves to do with competing apps. The “it just works” should be allowed to extend into the entire ecosystem.
    - skydhash 3y ago
      Same, I like Apple hardware and while the OS experience has suffered recently, it’s great as a tool to get things done. But making Music.app and other services part of the ecosystem has not been a great move. Some things should allow for interoperability so that the user can make his choices. I think Apple has been too heavily handed in imposing its services to users.
  - tikkabhuna 3y ago
    In my opinion, Apple have a choice. They go down the "just works", tight integration and lower the fees for other developers OR they open up for competition and keep the fees. At the moment they're double dipping. They're saying they have to be the only app store for security and UX AND then charging high fees. If they're really providing a service for end users, they shouldn't be taking such a large cut from developers.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      > If they're really providing a service for end users, they shouldn't be taking such a large cut from developers. Bingo. If they're making an argument that they have to retain so much control because it's good for the users, then why are their margins so big? I'm not saying companies shouldn't be able to run successful, highly-profitable businesses. I'm saying they shouldn't be able to (a) have significant market share, (b) have significant size / market cap, (c) have high margins, AND (d) claim "but we're so efficient for our users!" as a defense against anti-trust. One of those things is bullshit, and 3 out of 4 are facts...
    - chiefalchemist 3y ago
      But doesn't the higher fees on dev help to keep the riff raff out? Sure, it's a nice profitable margin-padding fee but how else do they keep out the bottom feeders? Do Apple users what to pay a premium to get more useless noise? Note: I'm not defending Apple. But the higher dev fees do serve a purpose other than revenue.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        If high fees (with high margins) are there to ensure the integrity of the store, then Apple could invest more of that margin into ensuring the integrity of the store.
      - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
        Back in the day you used to have to pay a bunch of money upfront to buy the software that allows you to develop software for a particular platform, then you were free to distribute your software as you wish. If Apple is really concerned about keeping out the riff raff they could raise the annual flat developer fees. But we all know that's not what they're actually concerned about - the app store is estimated to have 80% margins right now. They're just charging what the market will bear, and the market will bear quite a lot right now as they're part of a duopoly on smartphones.
  - trothamel 3y ago
    That hasn't been the case with Safari in a long time, has it? And of course, users can't switch to a browser they believe works better.
    - kemayo 3y ago
      I doubt that a regular user has any opinion on whether Safari "just works". Some developers care about Safari vs Chrome vs Firefox browser engine features, but the average end user at most is just going to think some website sucks if it doesn't work. (And, personally, I don't see any problems in day to day usage, so I doubt it comes up much to those less technical than myself.) To the extent that they care, they seem satisfied by being able to switch to other iOS browsers that under the hood use the WebKit engine, but give them the ecosystem-integration with their desktop browser that they want. Shared Chrome bookmarks and tabs matter 1000x more to a random user than details of browser engines.
  - bklyn11201 3y ago
    "It just works" except I have to remember to not pay inside the app to get the cheapest price because the app price is 30% higher to pay the Apple tax. I need to open my laptop to buy a Kindle book instead of continuing to use my phone. Small, minor, annoying issues as a customer that make me think slightly less of Apple while continuing to be in awe of their hardware.
    - bevekspldnw 3y ago
      I imagine that will be the crux of the case - they need to prove consumer harm, and it’s quite clear Apple’s policies result in consumers paying more.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      >I need to open my laptop to buy a Kindle book instead of continuing to use my phone You can buy in iOS Safari and not have to open your laptop.
      - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
        But how would you know to do this if they're gagged developers from informing users about Apple's cut, cheaper prices elsewhere, or from giving them a link. I'm sure people will pay a bit more to use Apple pay and not get kicked out to a browser and possibly fiddle with re-logging in and re-typing in their payment info to a sketchy site. Very few will pay 30% more though, because even the people that love Apple pay will be forced to acknowledge it's an obvious ripoff, in no way commensurate to the value provided.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        I know because I compare the price on the vendors website versus the app. And I know that because I am up and up on how these things work, and I do not expect everyone else to be. However, I was just making a factual statement that anyone can pay using their browser on iPhone or iPad on the vendor’s website, just the same as they can using their laptop.
  - apercu 3y ago
    It _used_ to just work. Now each release is full of features no one asked for, and there are more and more issues because of this feature bloat. My M1 MacBook Pro is probably the second worst computer I've ever bought, and might have been the most expensive I've ever purchased.
    - selectodude 3y ago
      I'd be happy to trade you something you consider better.
      - apercu 3y ago
        I bought an Air (M1) at the same time and felt like the air was the better value. For one, the fact that you can't hit a button to volume up/down, but instead have to activate the Touchbar, click the sound icon, try to move the volume left or right to desired location is too many steps, not precise and a pain. I bought another Air this year (M2), and again, it's a far better value.
- whywhywhywhy 3y ago
  >I think it's debatable whether the average iPhone customer buys it, knowing it allows Apple to heavily tax all AppStore developers. I think if you explained it to the average iPhone customer you might be shocked they side with Apple. The concept of a platform where for free you can take advantage of it and just make 100% of the revenue without cutting in the owner of the platform is completely alien to how things work in what they consider the real world. I can't just walk into Walmart and set up a stand and make money, if I want to sell in Walmart I have to work with them and give them a similar sized cut. If I even set my stall up on the street I have to pay for permits, certification, suppliers. Not saying I agree with the App Store tax because I actually don't but I think the way they set it up as a "Store" was very clever in making it seem completely normal when it's completely abnormal compared to all personal computing up to that point, which maybe was an anomaly? Hope not.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Arguably phones are becoming less like stores and more like a significant part of life. This is especially true as more and more of modern life demands a smart phone and apps. And the only options are to take the deal -- modifiable at any time by the platform owner -- or burn down your digital life and start over on the only other practical competitor.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    Or any nintendo or playstation or xbox. I can't just sideload games into any of them either.. or any of my 'smarttvs' etc. Would this mean that anyone must be able to load any software into any platform that runs on software, or are we just picking on apple because they are popular. And got popular while doing all these things.. if people didn't want it they wouldn't have bought into it in the first place.
    - metabagel 3y ago
      Apple convinced us that only they could keep us safe. Turns out their argument is specious - they can't keep us safe either. They haven't been able to keep malicious apps off of their App Store.
- baxtr 3y ago
  I’m a heavy and loyal Apple user AND an app developer. I couldn’t care less about alternative App Stores. I don’t want them, I don’t need them. I am very happy the way it is.
  - metabagel 3y ago
    Bear in mind that the article mentions other issues, such as preventing third party banks managing your NFC wallet, degrading interoperability with non-Apple products, etc. Also, I'm not sure why you favor the App Store. It's not safe. Apple is unable to keep malicious apps off of it, and there is no warranty if you lose money due to a malicious app. People think there is some implied safety in the App Store. There is no such thing. Safety comes from not giving permissions to apps which don't need them.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    >> I think it's debatable whether the average iPhone customer buys it, knowing it allows Apple to heavily tax all AppStore developers. > I’m a heavy and loyal Apple user AND an app developer. Do you really think you're representative of the average iphone customer? A heavy, loyal user AND an app developer? I don't think so. And even if you were, your personal situation isn't a rebuttal
    - baxtr 3y ago
      Totally agree. However, let’s not assume what the majority of iPhone user thinks. To that end, I thought it is interesting to add my very personal perspective.
  - jobs_throwaway 3y ago
    Great. The beauty of an open market is that you can continue to solely suck on the teat of Apple if you so choose.
- nvarsj 3y ago
  Indeed - it's modern day corporate feudalism. Anyone arguing for Apple's side is akin to saying we should all be serfs for the King, because he takes care of us well and protects his kingdom.
mjburgess 3y ago
Monopoly law needs to be reinterpreted in light of network effects. It's not merely the integration which is a problem, it's how that + network effects gives apple undue market power to dictate terms to its users, devs, etc. Being a middleman between users and devs, say, takes on a different character when you're a 2-3T biz at the heart of the economy.
- giantrobot 3y ago
  Since market cap is a determinant in behavior (the speculative value of a secondary market) where's the case for forcing nVidia to open up CUDA or for Microsoft to let Nintendo open a store on the Xbox?
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    NVIDIA and CUDA are not comparable. NVIDIA isn't preventing you from running OpenCL or Vulkan.
- starbugs 3y ago
  Exactly. From my point of view, nobody needs to be a lawyer to see that this can't stand as it is. There are two major operating systems for each form factor. In the last ten years, no other vendor has been able to successfully place a new OS on the market. If there wasn't a monopoly (or duopoly or oligarchy or whatever you wanna call it), then this would have happened. And this appears mainly to be due to network effects and the high complexity of the underlying systems.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    You don’t need to be a lawyer to see that there’s a duopoly, but duopolies aren’t illegal. The DOJ has to prove illegal conduct, which is harder than just showing a lack of widespread competition.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      > but duopolies aren’t illegal They should be.
fifticon 3y ago
Though the average hackernews reader knows all this, it is not my impression that the average apple consumer is aware of it. Anecdotally, many of the people in my social vicinity choosing apple, are the same people who make their choices based on what they presume the 'cool kids' believe is the 'in' choice. I don't experience iphone users as tech-savvy, as much as I seem them be 'anxious to be cool'.
- Foxhuls 3y ago
  I think most people just like how simple the products are overall. I prefer that my family, who tends to need a lot of basic tech support, have iPhones because they’re able to figure most things out and there’s no real risk of them messing anything important up. I’ve also noticed this strange phenomenon that the majority of people who complain about iPhones and the apple ecosystem don’t even use them. If someone doesn’t like what the company offers, they’re not forced to buy any of their products. I hate the idea of needing to deal with multiple app stores in the future because people who don’t even use the products have some sort of issue with it.
moralestapia 3y ago
>It looked surprisingly pretty weak to my non lawyer eyes. * tin foil hat on * That may be by design. If the outcome of this is "no monopoly", then it's a win for Apple.
- jpadkins 3y ago
  the new form of corp + government collusion does these weak investigations and charges, tying up the space for years and ultimately losing. It allows politicians to claim they are doing something, while securing access for intel agencies and insuring pro status quo election messaging. These charges also undercut the next administration's leverage to negotiate with Apple, now that the threat of anti-trust charges are taken off the table.
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    Very nice take on it, thanks.
hooverd 3y ago
The problem with a software moat is that it's infecting physical objects. Hardware, sure. But things like your tractor refusing to work if you use a non-vendor approved component. Not sued, just bricked.
ericmcer 3y ago
It is a feature, interfaces between pieces of software is some of the most expensive and challenging parts of writing it. When every piece of software is written specifically with that interfacing in mind it will just run better. Now Apple hardware is starting to do the same thing? I am pretty bullish on Apple right now and could easily see a future where Windows isn't even used for gaming anymore. When Macbook Airs start to be capable of running high end games what is the point of getting a huge Desktop running Windows jammed with bloatware from 100 different companies?
- blashyrk 3y ago
  I for one would never trade my Windows (or Linux w/ KDE) for the atrocity that is the macOS UX :)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ethbr1 3y ago

> that apple business practices are building a moat through highly integrated software To me, this is the crux of modern antitrust, and the EU absolutely got it correct at a high level. In simplest form -- doing certain things as an almost-monopoly and/or extremely large business should be illegal, while doing them as a smaller company should not be. The scale of global businesses, in low-competition industries, allows them to engineer moats that are deeply injurious to fair competition, to their own profit and the detriment of everyone else. > you buy it knowing that. I think it's debatable whether the average iPhone customer buys it, knowing it allows Apple to heavily tax all AppStore developers.

ecshafer 3y ago
I don't consider myself an Apple fan, but Apple users definitely buy into the idea that "it just works" compared to Android or Windows, which the highly integrated software is a key component of.
- Y-bar 3y ago
  I’m an Apple user (own iPad, iPhone, Mac Studio, among other devices) since the 90:s and I buy into that. But I _also_ think Apple has grown way too much into a bully and way too much into disallowing third party developers to do things Apple allows themselves to do with competing apps. The “it just works” should be allowed to extend into the entire ecosystem.
  - skydhash 3y ago
    Same, I like Apple hardware and while the OS experience has suffered recently, it’s great as a tool to get things done. But making Music.app and other services part of the ecosystem has not been a great move. Some things should allow for interoperability so that the user can make his choices. I think Apple has been too heavily handed in imposing its services to users.
- tikkabhuna 3y ago
  In my opinion, Apple have a choice. They go down the "just works", tight integration and lower the fees for other developers OR they open up for competition and keep the fees. At the moment they're double dipping. They're saying they have to be the only app store for security and UX AND then charging high fees. If they're really providing a service for end users, they shouldn't be taking such a large cut from developers.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    > If they're really providing a service for end users, they shouldn't be taking such a large cut from developers. Bingo. If they're making an argument that they have to retain so much control because it's good for the users, then why are their margins so big? I'm not saying companies shouldn't be able to run successful, highly-profitable businesses. I'm saying they shouldn't be able to (a) have significant market share, (b) have significant size / market cap, (c) have high margins, AND (d) claim "but we're so efficient for our users!" as a defense against anti-trust. One of those things is bullshit, and 3 out of 4 are facts...
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    But doesn't the higher fees on dev help to keep the riff raff out? Sure, it's a nice profitable margin-padding fee but how else do they keep out the bottom feeders? Do Apple users what to pay a premium to get more useless noise? Note: I'm not defending Apple. But the higher dev fees do serve a purpose other than revenue.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      If high fees (with high margins) are there to ensure the integrity of the store, then Apple could invest more of that margin into ensuring the integrity of the store.
    - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
      Back in the day you used to have to pay a bunch of money upfront to buy the software that allows you to develop software for a particular platform, then you were free to distribute your software as you wish. If Apple is really concerned about keeping out the riff raff they could raise the annual flat developer fees. But we all know that's not what they're actually concerned about - the app store is estimated to have 80% margins right now. They're just charging what the market will bear, and the market will bear quite a lot right now as they're part of a duopoly on smartphones.
- trothamel 3y ago
  That hasn't been the case with Safari in a long time, has it? And of course, users can't switch to a browser they believe works better.
  - kemayo 3y ago
    I doubt that a regular user has any opinion on whether Safari "just works". Some developers care about Safari vs Chrome vs Firefox browser engine features, but the average end user at most is just going to think some website sucks if it doesn't work. (And, personally, I don't see any problems in day to day usage, so I doubt it comes up much to those less technical than myself.) To the extent that they care, they seem satisfied by being able to switch to other iOS browsers that under the hood use the WebKit engine, but give them the ecosystem-integration with their desktop browser that they want. Shared Chrome bookmarks and tabs matter 1000x more to a random user than details of browser engines.
- bklyn11201 3y ago
  "It just works" except I have to remember to not pay inside the app to get the cheapest price because the app price is 30% higher to pay the Apple tax. I need to open my laptop to buy a Kindle book instead of continuing to use my phone. Small, minor, annoying issues as a customer that make me think slightly less of Apple while continuing to be in awe of their hardware.
  - bevekspldnw 3y ago
    I imagine that will be the crux of the case - they need to prove consumer harm, and it’s quite clear Apple’s policies result in consumers paying more.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    >I need to open my laptop to buy a Kindle book instead of continuing to use my phone You can buy in iOS Safari and not have to open your laptop.
    - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
      But how would you know to do this if they're gagged developers from informing users about Apple's cut, cheaper prices elsewhere, or from giving them a link. I'm sure people will pay a bit more to use Apple pay and not get kicked out to a browser and possibly fiddle with re-logging in and re-typing in their payment info to a sketchy site. Very few will pay 30% more though, because even the people that love Apple pay will be forced to acknowledge it's an obvious ripoff, in no way commensurate to the value provided.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        I know because I compare the price on the vendors website versus the app. And I know that because I am up and up on how these things work, and I do not expect everyone else to be. However, I was just making a factual statement that anyone can pay using their browser on iPhone or iPad on the vendor’s website, just the same as they can using their laptop.
- apercu 3y ago
  It _used_ to just work. Now each release is full of features no one asked for, and there are more and more issues because of this feature bloat. My M1 MacBook Pro is probably the second worst computer I've ever bought, and might have been the most expensive I've ever purchased.
  - selectodude 3y ago
    I'd be happy to trade you something you consider better.
    - apercu 3y ago
      I bought an Air (M1) at the same time and felt like the air was the better value. For one, the fact that you can't hit a button to volume up/down, but instead have to activate the Touchbar, click the sound icon, try to move the volume left or right to desired location is too many steps, not precise and a pain. I bought another Air this year (M2), and again, it's a far better value.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
>I think it's debatable whether the average iPhone customer buys it, knowing it allows Apple to heavily tax all AppStore developers. I think if you explained it to the average iPhone customer you might be shocked they side with Apple. The concept of a platform where for free you can take advantage of it and just make 100% of the revenue without cutting in the owner of the platform is completely alien to how things work in what they consider the real world. I can't just walk into Walmart and set up a stand and make money, if I want to sell in Walmart I have to work with them and give them a similar sized cut. If I even set my stall up on the street I have to pay for permits, certification, suppliers. Not saying I agree with the App Store tax because I actually don't but I think the way they set it up as a "Store" was very clever in making it seem completely normal when it's completely abnormal compared to all personal computing up to that point, which maybe was an anomaly? Hope not.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Arguably phones are becoming less like stores and more like a significant part of life. This is especially true as more and more of modern life demands a smart phone and apps. And the only options are to take the deal -- modifiable at any time by the platform owner -- or burn down your digital life and start over on the only other practical competitor.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  Or any nintendo or playstation or xbox. I can't just sideload games into any of them either.. or any of my 'smarttvs' etc. Would this mean that anyone must be able to load any software into any platform that runs on software, or are we just picking on apple because they are popular. And got popular while doing all these things.. if people didn't want it they wouldn't have bought into it in the first place.
  - metabagel 3y ago
    Apple convinced us that only they could keep us safe. Turns out their argument is specious - they can't keep us safe either. They haven't been able to keep malicious apps off of their App Store.
baxtr 3y ago
I’m a heavy and loyal Apple user AND an app developer. I couldn’t care less about alternative App Stores. I don’t want them, I don’t need them. I am very happy the way it is.
- metabagel 3y ago
  Bear in mind that the article mentions other issues, such as preventing third party banks managing your NFC wallet, degrading interoperability with non-Apple products, etc. Also, I'm not sure why you favor the App Store. It's not safe. Apple is unable to keep malicious apps off of it, and there is no warranty if you lose money due to a malicious app. People think there is some implied safety in the App Store. There is no such thing. Safety comes from not giving permissions to apps which don't need them.
- freedomben 3y ago
  >> I think it's debatable whether the average iPhone customer buys it, knowing it allows Apple to heavily tax all AppStore developers. > I’m a heavy and loyal Apple user AND an app developer. Do you really think you're representative of the average iphone customer? A heavy, loyal user AND an app developer? I don't think so. And even if you were, your personal situation isn't a rebuttal
  - baxtr 3y ago
    Totally agree. However, let’s not assume what the majority of iPhone user thinks. To that end, I thought it is interesting to add my very personal perspective.
- jobs_throwaway 3y ago
  Great. The beauty of an open market is that you can continue to solely suck on the teat of Apple if you so choose.
nvarsj 3y ago
Indeed - it's modern day corporate feudalism. Anyone arguing for Apple's side is akin to saying we should all be serfs for the King, because he takes care of us well and protects his kingdom.

mjburgess 3y ago

Monopoly law needs to be reinterpreted in light of network effects. It's not merely the integration which is a problem, it's how that + network effects gives apple undue market power to dictate terms to its users, devs, etc. Being a middleman between users and devs, say, takes on a different character when you're a 2-3T biz at the heart of the economy.

giantrobot 3y ago
Since market cap is a determinant in behavior (the speculative value of a secondary market) where's the case for forcing nVidia to open up CUDA or for Microsoft to let Nintendo open a store on the Xbox?
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  NVIDIA and CUDA are not comparable. NVIDIA isn't preventing you from running OpenCL or Vulkan.
starbugs 3y ago
Exactly. From my point of view, nobody needs to be a lawyer to see that this can't stand as it is. There are two major operating systems for each form factor. In the last ten years, no other vendor has been able to successfully place a new OS on the market. If there wasn't a monopoly (or duopoly or oligarchy or whatever you wanna call it), then this would have happened. And this appears mainly to be due to network effects and the high complexity of the underlying systems.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  You don’t need to be a lawyer to see that there’s a duopoly, but duopolies aren’t illegal. The DOJ has to prove illegal conduct, which is harder than just showing a lack of widespread competition.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > but duopolies aren’t illegal They should be.

fifticon 3y ago

Though the average hackernews reader knows all this, it is not my impression that the average apple consumer is aware of it. Anecdotally, many of the people in my social vicinity choosing apple, are the same people who make their choices based on what they presume the 'cool kids' believe is the 'in' choice. I don't experience iphone users as tech-savvy, as much as I seem them be 'anxious to be cool'.

Foxhuls 3y ago
I think most people just like how simple the products are overall. I prefer that my family, who tends to need a lot of basic tech support, have iPhones because they’re able to figure most things out and there’s no real risk of them messing anything important up. I’ve also noticed this strange phenomenon that the majority of people who complain about iPhones and the apple ecosystem don’t even use them. If someone doesn’t like what the company offers, they’re not forced to buy any of their products. I hate the idea of needing to deal with multiple app stores in the future because people who don’t even use the products have some sort of issue with it.

moralestapia 3y ago

>It looked surprisingly pretty weak to my non lawyer eyes. * tin foil hat on * That may be by design. If the outcome of this is "no monopoly", then it's a win for Apple.

jpadkins 3y ago
the new form of corp + government collusion does these weak investigations and charges, tying up the space for years and ultimately losing. It allows politicians to claim they are doing something, while securing access for intel agencies and insuring pro status quo election messaging. These charges also undercut the next administration's leverage to negotiate with Apple, now that the threat of anti-trust charges are taken off the table.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  Very nice take on it, thanks.

hooverd 3y ago

The problem with a software moat is that it's infecting physical objects. Hardware, sure. But things like your tractor refusing to work if you use a non-vendor approved component. Not sued, just bricked.

ericmcer 3y ago

It is a feature, interfaces between pieces of software is some of the most expensive and challenging parts of writing it. When every piece of software is written specifically with that interfacing in mind it will just run better. Now Apple hardware is starting to do the same thing? I am pretty bullish on Apple right now and could easily see a future where Windows isn't even used for gaming anymore. When Macbook Airs start to be capable of running high end games what is the point of getting a huge Desktop running Windows jammed with bloatware from 100 different companies?

blashyrk 3y ago
I for one would never trade my Windows (or Linux w/ KDE) for the atrocity that is the macOS UX :)

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]