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Ikigai: What We Got Wrong and How to Find Meaning in Life
- throwaway_08932 3y ago> Japanese do not need grandiose motivational frameworks to keep going, but rely more on the little rituals in their daily routines.
- ljoshua 3y agoThis was a nice reframing of the concept of ikigai as I've heard it, and a quick consult of Wikipedia for ikigai [0] shows that it's largely accurate. I'd also throw out there that one can derive a lot of purpose and meaning in life from religion as well. I certainly do. There are many motivating factors in life, and some core religious beliefs can do this quite effectively, in a positive manner. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikigai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikigai
- 47282847 3y agoSpirituality != Religion
- graemep 3y agoThis is hardly a novel idea in the rest of the world. It is an ancient one and widespread. It is discussed by many philosophers and is discussed in many religions. It strikes me that westerners have lost the roots of their culture and are having to relearn it from elsewhere. "ikigai doesn’t limit someone’s value in life to career and financial status" Ancient Greek philosophers and their successors frequently discussed happiness and how to live life. Assuming it is being explained correctly here, that is less anti-wealth than Christianity ("it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle" etc) but similar in rejecting financial status. Buddhism regards wealth as an attachment so I would have expected a slightly different attitude. From middle eastern (possibly Hellenised) culture before Christianity read the book of Ecclesiastes. "What does a man acquire from all his labor and from the anxiety that accompanies his toil on earth? For all day long his work produces pain and frustration,) and even at night his mind cannot relax! This also is futile! There is nothing better for people than to eat and drink, and to find enjoyment in their work."
- mistermann 3y ago> This is hardly a novel idea in the rest of the world. It is an ancient one and widespread. This (like so many other things) is a very ontologically tricky proposition due to the deceptive distinction between abstract and concrete "is-ness". It is true that at least one Human in each country possesses at least some knowledge of such things, but how well distributed is the knowledge? The so casually deployed symbol "is" makes no distinction, and Humans generally do not have the ability to consider such things. Even weirder: Hard Whorfism "is" "false". > It strikes me that westerners have lost the roots of their culture and are having to relearn it from elsewhere. Absolutely agree....perhaps this is (at least in part) because we never learned in the first place (other than abstractly, and even there only for a small percentage of the population) the difference between abstract and concrete "reality", because such things are not taught in standard curriculum in school (see also: financial planning, how to be nice, categorization in general (ontology/taxonomy), etc). I often wonder if all of the sub-optimalities in our "advanced, 'scientific' culture" are purely coincidences / oversights. That people seem to so reliably (in frequency, and form) have an innate and very strong aversion (a lot like how religious or anti-religious people get nervous/agitated if one is to call into question the truth of scripture) to discussing such matters in the context of concrete reality makes me more than a little suspicious.
- divinie 3y ago> a lot like how religious or anti-religious people get nervous/agitated if one is to call into question the truth. You're recognizing the same bias. It's not that there are oversights so much as there are widespread ideas believed to be definitive. Rather than teaching people the "right ideas," at this point I feel it's critical that people learn how cognitive biases work, namely, authority bias. On the matter of beliefs, Crony Beliefs is a gem https://meltingasphalt.com/crony-beliefs/ https://meltingasphalt.com/crony-beliefs/
- graemep 3y agoI agree it is a problem, but I do not think teaching people about cognitive biases will solve it. It is very hard to apply it to yourself, and any kind of critical thinking is hard. A lot of people will not even make the effort. The motivation comes from existing values and beliefs, which will have been subject to biases themselves!
- koliber 3y agoI have not understood the need of a purpose in life until I found myself in situations where direction evaporated. It is discomforting, surprising, and enlightening. This happened a few times, and I learned something new each time. It's a journey of self-discovery. Thinking of it both in grandiose terms as well as in the little habits was helpful. It's also helpful to see what others do in such situations. Some common situations where the purpose in life changes: - retirement - kids moving out of the house - hitting a grand goal (i.e. buying a house, trip of a lifetime) - financial sufficiency or independence - finishing college Ikigai is a neat lens for exploring this part of self.
- oldstrangers 3y ago"until I found myself in situations where direction evaporated." This is the important part. Most people simply work themselves to death and never find the time to ask these kinds of questions. Or, they did ask themselves these questions at one point and realized working themselves to death was a more pleasant route than struggling with such existential problems.
- balfirevic 3y agoMost people work themselves to death?
- oldstrangers 3y agoCorrect.
- natmaka 3y agoInertia ('habits') "at work".
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago>Some common situations where the purpose in life changes: I have best heard these moments called "now what? moments."
- agumonkey 3y agoWarning: depending on your life, the first reading about ikigai might make you even more depressed (cause it may reopen wounds)
- phkahler 3y agoThere are 4 regions in the diagram that have no labels. These are all one step away from the Ikigai. Each of these would be "close but not quite" for a different reason. Edit: Haha, as I read on it's not necessary to find the "one thing".
- irq-1 3y agohttps://management30.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/IKIGAI--1024x1024.jpg https://management30.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/IKIGAI--... They're labeled on the linked image.
- ojo-rojo 3y agoThis kind of reminds me of something Mariko told the Anjin in the show Shōgun. He wanted to leave Japan and be free of rituals and she said something like "If you're always chasing freedom you'll never find yourself."
- JohnMakin 3y agoDealing with this kind of angst most of my life, I've found great value in this and similar philosophies. However, it should also be noted that Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world (not that far ahead of the US though).
- ed_mercer 3y agoJapan's suicide rate is significant but not among the highest in the world when compared with other countries https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-r...
- JohnMakin 3y ago“One of the highest in the world” IS comparing it to other countries. It is in the top 20 and towards the top in the developed world. Hardly an inaccurate or false statement.
- BAA79C72 3y ago[dead]
- ed_mercer 3y agoJapan's at 25th place for suicide rates with 15.3 suicides per 100,000 people, which means it's definitely up there, but not “one of the highest in the world”. The US is worse.
- JohnMakin 3y agoI believe you are likely looking at old data from the pandemic, which saw a drop in suicide rate around the world. Japan’s 2023 (and 2022) suicide rate is higher than that: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/01/26/japan/society/japan-suicides-fall/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/01/26/japan/society/j... At ~50k deaths last year the USA has a smaller rate per 100k people than Japan. Not like it matters at all in the scope of this discussion, but again, it is completely accurate to state that japan has one of the highest rates in the world, and a rate that has traditionally been higher than the USA (and is today). Hope that helps.
- mattgreenrocks 3y agoFor most of my life I kept thinking I was looking for financial independence, knowing full well I’d continue to work if I hit it. But this posed a problem: why work hard toward that if the day-to-day wouldn’t change much? Eventually I reconciled this when I encountered Epictetus: I was actually looking for a mental freedom to find my own meaning, identity, and grow my capacity to choose the good on a daily basis. It was less about the total dollar amount and more about the perception of my own agency. In fact, I’d much rather grow the meta-skills that let me flourish in life across multiple dimensions than have a bunch of cash land on my doorstep. This is either wise or the type of thing you tell yourself when you haven't had outsized success. But, I also realize the former is 100% more resilient even if it is much harder. From here, the fog has started to lift, and I can continue the work of uncovering my resilient core of personality.
- theonething 3y agoI'd rather have a bunch of cash. Then I wouldn't need to work and could do want I want. So many things I'd rather do than work, e.g. spend more time with my family, take classes, read more, exercise more, etc.
- knightoffaith 3y agoI don't really understand. Is the article saying that how to find meaning in life is by rejecting grand narratives and finding meaning in small things? That sounds to me like saying that how to find meaning in life is by... finding meaning in it. Don't get me wrong, it does seem correct to stop seeking your one true passion, embrace lifelong learning, letting go of lofty financial goals, and stop feeling like your only goal should be saving the world. But I'm not clear on why or how we should, in the "ikigai worldview", find meaning in doing these things. Really, it seems to me that the implication in the article is that the question "how do I find meaning in life?" is basically the wrong question to ask, that life is not the kind of thing that has meaning, and that we should instead just focus on being happy, which can be accomplished by small things. That would make sense to me. Though I prefer the western idea that there is a grand life purpose. The 4 "ikigai principles" are perfectly compatible with there being a grand life purpose - that there is a grand narrative in which we are partaking doesn't mean that every individual person has be some world-renowned entrepreneur or something. An analogy - a team of stonemasons working on building a cathedral may each individually be working on a small piece of the final building that, to the individual, doesn't appear very meaningful or important. But the sum total of the work of all the stonemasons culminates in something grand and beautiful.
- ajkjk 3y agoIt is amusing that the arguments for this are like "it reduces anxiety" and "it's good for your heart". Like... yes... in that it makes you happier or more fulfilled or whatever, and therefore it has those effects? But if what draws you to a philosophy is the health benefits... you're fucked.
- photochemsyn 3y agoReminiscent of the Akira Kurosawa film 'Ikiru' (1952): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikiru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikiru
- freemanon 3y agoLooking at the term "Ikigai" as if it's some sort of dogma or a way to improve one's life sorts of defeats the point. East Asian philosophies are not for achieving "meaning of life" and other mundane goals.
- nox101 3y agoI lived in Japan for 18 years. Japan is not known for people following any of the advice in this article > Stop seeking your One True Passion 1000s of examples of Japanese people following their passion to extremes exceeding most non-Japanese expectations. A famous example would be Jiro from "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" Japan is a place where lots people give their lives to their company. I've met plenty of Japanese who work 10am with 90 minute commute (so 8:30am) to 10pm (and 90 mins back) 5 days a week, all year. These people have families but they readily admit they spend more time with coworkers than family and are in many ways closer to them.
- geraldhh 3y ago> These people have families but they readily admit they spend more time with coworkers than family and are in many ways closer to them. baring the closeness part, this seems rather ubiquitous
- ChidiKajal 3y agostill not sure what to think about the popularized ikigai venn diagram but thought this talk by Everything Everywhere All at once directors at SXSW recently covered some interesting and entertaining perspectives on the idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBANXz79fDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBANXz79fDg
- xyzelement 3y agoThis deeply resonates, but I am also inherently biased towards seeking meaning and long-run impact. There are various western schools of thought that add up to the same thing, eg Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Sometimes I see posts on HN and elsewhere that seem to be divorced from a "meaning"-full perspective. I don't mean someone who finds different meaning than I do, but someone who doesn't think meaning matters at all. Sometimes it comes out as "I don't understand why anyone would have kids when it's much easier to just get brunch" or "I don't understand why work that impacts people is more valuable than one that doesn't" etc. FWIW, I sometimes check those folks comment history and they don't seem to be particularly happy despite (or maybe because of) the fact that they removed all onus of meaning from themselves.
- sevagh 3y agoHere's my sticking point with this: >Sometimes it comes out as "I don't understand why anyone would have kids when it's much easier to just get brunch" If I have kids, I derive meaning from providing _them_ with the ability to derive pleasure from brunch. Then, they have kids and those kids go derive pleasure from their kids having brunch. It's brunch all the way down.
- dhosek 3y agoThere’s a recent (2023) novel translated from Japanese for which this is a central concept in the plot (since I read it in translation, I don’t know if Ikigai is mentioned in the original). It’s entitled What You Are Looking For Is In The Library by Michiko Aoyama. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1335005625/donhosek http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1335005625/donhosek I first learned of it thanks to reading all the shortlist books from this year’s Tournament of Books https://www.tournamentofbooks.com https://www.tournamentofbooks.com
- blueyes 3y agoI like the idea of finding micro-habits, activities and relationships that are fulfilling. While Ikigai may have been repurposed by the West, its new incarnation and Venn diagram seems like a pretty valuable tool for young people to navigate life, even if it's a radical semantic shift from the original Japanese. It also has the merit of trying to awaken peoples' ambition, to raise the ceiling on what they think they might achieve, and how to get there, which Anne-Marie's originalism lacks.
- Zufriedenheit 3y agoThis reminds me of the recent movie “Perfect Days”. It’s about a japanese man who lives his ikigai cleaning Tokyo toilets.
- schneebyte 3y agoI prefer "flexible" stoicism, like Seneca. In the scale of the universe (time and space) we are all insignificant, like tiny ants. One ant has more money than the others. Another ant is famous. Don't be afraid of death. Enjoy living in the present. Try to do good. Of course easier said than done.
- _tk_ 3y agoIkigai is one of these concepts, that I suspect to be mostly substituted by western life coach BS, which mostly means common sense application of modern-ish western philosophy to daily life including work. Unfortunately, when it is presented through the lens of someone who has lived in Japan for 7 months, this hardly changes my biased view.
- sevagh 3y agoAnybody else feel like you enjoy the feeling of "having had done a thing" more than doing the thing?
- aradox66 3y agoType 2 fun
- hayst4ck 3y agoI've found if you substitute the word meaning with the word feeling, almost all content about meaning makes a lot more sense. The purpose of life is to live a life full of feeling. > Many of us think that finding our passion will magically give our life a purpose. Instead, find feeling in your daily experiences and interactions. > Embrace lifelong learning. -> Conduct yourself in a way that gives you the feeling of self esteem. > beyond the point of comfort, financial success should be seen as a potential byproduct of living a life full of feeling. > Instead of pursuing a grand life purpose, optimize for wanting to wake up in the morning. Live a life of curiosity and connection. Trust that success will be a byproduct of the feeling you find in daily experiences.
- autumnstwilight 3y agoWhile I'm not a native Japanese speaker, I've lived here for a decade and communicate in Japanese 98% of the time at work. "Ikigai" is just a combination of "ikiru" (live) and "kai" (worth doing). The existence of such a word does not imply any more of a coherent or commonly followed philosophy than the existence of the English phrase "purpose in life" or the loanword "raison d’être" does. Pretty much everything I've seen about the "unique Japanese concept of ikigai" appears to be almost entirely made up by non-Japanese people. Not that it's necessarily a bad or useless concept, but claiming this particular formulation of it is ancient Japanese wisdom appears to be a marketing effort.
- rramadass 3y agoQuite right. I have a longstanding interest in Japanese Budo and hence count myself as somewhat knowledgeable on certain ancient aspects of that culture. There is always a tendency by westerners to read/invent more than what is in the culture itself. And then the charlatans/hucksters/shysters (both japanese and non-japanese) get on the act and ruin everything. This "Ikigai" hype reminds me of the earlier hype about "Naikan Therapy", "Morita Therapy" etc.
- raskelll 3y agoI would posit that the ability to distil complex concepts into concise phrases is prevalent across various cultures and languages. Isn't it true for our Western idioms, like the popular 'YOLO' or 'Carpe Diem' (or even the very French 'raison d'être' itself)? These terms, mostly void of any formal philosophical roots, are ways of defining and affirming the value of life within our linguistic and cultural contexts. Who's to say that future generations, whether foreign or native, won't feel a sense of novelty or exoticism in analysing these phrases of old, much like the discussion surrounding 'ikigai' today?
- leke 3y agoReminds me a bit of Emanuel Kant's philosophy which is something like Something to do. Someone to love. Something to hope for.