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Steel is less common, but not really for performance reasons. There are plenty of lovely steel bikes, and they are more durable and just as light. Feel is also

Steel is less common, but not really for performance reasons. There are plenty of lovely steel bikes, and they are more durable and just as light. Feel is also nicer (although this slightly more subjective). Ali is just cheaper to manufacture.

Lio 3y ago
There are plenty of lovely steel bikes but steel is definitely less common for performance reasons. It's neither more durable or lighter than frames made of aluminium, titanium or carbon fibre. For example, a typical frame made of steel will generally be about 1kg heavier than one made of carbon. The forks will 500g heavier. If you scratch or chip the paint steel will corrode. The claims that steel (or titanium) "feels" better than aluminium or carbon fibre have been thoroughly debunked. The Young's Modulus of steel tubes used in bike frames ends up almost exactly the same as aluminium or titanium and steel has no "magic" vibration absorbing qualities. Carbon fibre is the only frame material with any real vibration damping and even that is massively over-hyped compared to an actual shock absorber or even bigger tyres. If you want to choose a steel frame then it should be because you like the look, it's easy to weld, uses less energy to make or it's cheaper.
- isthatafact 3y ago
  > "The claims that steel (or titanium) "feels" better than aluminium or carbon fibre have been thoroughly debunked." Have they? Do you have support for that statement? Why is it so implausible that different materials might feel different? I did a (non-blind) comparison of steel versus carbon fiber, and they felt very different to me. They also certainly sound wildly different if you just tap your finger on steel frame versus a carbon fiber frame, so a different "feel" that corresponds to higher frequency vibrations seems plausible.
  - Mawr 3y ago
    > I did a (non-blind) comparison of steel versus carbon fiber, and they felt very different to me. Meaning, you switched out the frame on a bike from steel to carbon, keeping everything else, and felt a difference?
    - isthatafact 3y ago
      I did not mean to imply that I had, but with the billions spent by the fitness cycling industry pushing out "cheap" aluminium and carbon fiber frames against the popular "myth" that steel feels smoother, you would expect that someone would make the effort to do a reliable test, assuming it really is a myth.
  - Lio 3y ago
    Yeah there’s loads of research into it for both bikes and wheelchairs. Here’s a video from Cycling About that gives a good overview: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb4ktAbmr_4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb4ktAbmr_4
    - isthatafact 3y ago
      I do not see any relation between effectively static strain gauge versus force measurements and the "feel" of riding a bike in terms of high frequency vibrations. The rest of the video is just the confidently stated opinions of a random person.
      - Lio 3y ago
        OK what do you think contributes to good "feel" of a bike frame, with regard to high frequency vibration, then? I mean what frequency would you class as road buzz? With that we could start to analyse what's going on. When I look at the damping ratio of steel[1] I see something around 0.01 - 0.05 which is under-damped. Carbon fibre can be somewhat better at between around 0.1-0.3 i.e. an order of magnitude better but still not what I'd consider a shock absorber. I'd be surprised if much high frequency vibration that's made it through the tyres is actually damped by the frame. With regard to non-blind, anecdotal comparisons I own and regularly ride bikes made from steel, aluminium and carbon fibre. I'm in the camp that thinks a long flexible seat post will do much more for comfort than frame material. If you know of a study showing otherwise though, I'd be really interested to see it. 1. Sorry I can't find exact figures for 4140 CroMo but I don't think it's outside of this range.
        isthatafact 3y ago
        It was a long time ago that I compared bikes, but I remember really feeling the texture of all the little pebbles that makes up road pavement on a carbon fiber bike. Then with an old steel bike, it felt as if the road had been polished into smooth glass surface. This difference was especially noticeable in the feet. At the time, I assumed the difference was the frame material, but I really do not know the cause. I do believe there is something that could be quantified as opposed to just a psychological effect, but it could be something non-obvious like the typical curved shape of old steel forks; or the frame geometry or tube diameters; or even something else that just correlates with frame material like the tendency of old steel frames to have hand-built wheels with lots of spokes as opposed to the newer (seemingly) rigid factory wheels with fewer spokes.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  >If you scratch or chip the paint steel will corrode this isn't really true. yes, exposed steel will show rust, but that's not what "corrodes" iron to the point of weakness. to corrode in a way that weakens iron, it needs to be kept wet over an extended period of time. If you've seen an old car with holes rusted through, that has occurred "from the inside" in places where water can collect and sit. The outside of objects will dry after rain, and such corrosion will never be a problem beyond aesthetics.
- bumby 3y ago
  >steel has no "magic" vibration absorbing qualities. Steel does have an infinite fatigue life while aluminum does not. From that standpoint, it is a more durable material.

Lio 3y ago

There are plenty of lovely steel bikes but steel is definitely less common for performance reasons. It's neither more durable or lighter than frames made of aluminium, titanium or carbon fibre. For example, a typical frame made of steel will generally be about 1kg heavier than one made of carbon. The forks will 500g heavier. If you scratch or chip the paint steel will corrode. The claims that steel (or titanium) "feels" better than aluminium or carbon fibre have been thoroughly debunked. The Young's Modulus of steel tubes used in bike frames ends up almost exactly the same as aluminium or titanium and steel has no "magic" vibration absorbing qualities. Carbon fibre is the only frame material with any real vibration damping and even that is massively over-hyped compared to an actual shock absorber or even bigger tyres. If you want to choose a steel frame then it should be because you like the look, it's easy to weld, uses less energy to make or it's cheaper.

isthatafact 3y ago
> "The claims that steel (or titanium) "feels" better than aluminium or carbon fibre have been thoroughly debunked." Have they? Do you have support for that statement? Why is it so implausible that different materials might feel different? I did a (non-blind) comparison of steel versus carbon fiber, and they felt very different to me. They also certainly sound wildly different if you just tap your finger on steel frame versus a carbon fiber frame, so a different "feel" that corresponds to higher frequency vibrations seems plausible.
- Mawr 3y ago
  > I did a (non-blind) comparison of steel versus carbon fiber, and they felt very different to me. Meaning, you switched out the frame on a bike from steel to carbon, keeping everything else, and felt a difference?
  - isthatafact 3y ago
    I did not mean to imply that I had, but with the billions spent by the fitness cycling industry pushing out "cheap" aluminium and carbon fiber frames against the popular "myth" that steel feels smoother, you would expect that someone would make the effort to do a reliable test, assuming it really is a myth.
- Lio 3y ago
  Yeah there’s loads of research into it for both bikes and wheelchairs. Here’s a video from Cycling About that gives a good overview: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb4ktAbmr_4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb4ktAbmr_4
  - isthatafact 3y ago
    I do not see any relation between effectively static strain gauge versus force measurements and the "feel" of riding a bike in terms of high frequency vibrations. The rest of the video is just the confidently stated opinions of a random person.
    - Lio 3y ago
      OK what do you think contributes to good "feel" of a bike frame, with regard to high frequency vibration, then? I mean what frequency would you class as road buzz? With that we could start to analyse what's going on. When I look at the damping ratio of steel[1] I see something around 0.01 - 0.05 which is under-damped. Carbon fibre can be somewhat better at between around 0.1-0.3 i.e. an order of magnitude better but still not what I'd consider a shock absorber. I'd be surprised if much high frequency vibration that's made it through the tyres is actually damped by the frame. With regard to non-blind, anecdotal comparisons I own and regularly ride bikes made from steel, aluminium and carbon fibre. I'm in the camp that thinks a long flexible seat post will do much more for comfort than frame material. If you know of a study showing otherwise though, I'd be really interested to see it. 1. Sorry I can't find exact figures for 4140 CroMo but I don't think it's outside of this range.
      - isthatafact 3y ago
        It was a long time ago that I compared bikes, but I remember really feeling the texture of all the little pebbles that makes up road pavement on a carbon fiber bike. Then with an old steel bike, it felt as if the road had been polished into smooth glass surface. This difference was especially noticeable in the feet. At the time, I assumed the difference was the frame material, but I really do not know the cause. I do believe there is something that could be quantified as opposed to just a psychological effect, but it could be something non-obvious like the typical curved shape of old steel forks; or the frame geometry or tube diameters; or even something else that just correlates with frame material like the tendency of old steel frames to have hand-built wheels with lots of spokes as opposed to the newer (seemingly) rigid factory wheels with fewer spokes.
fsckboy 3y ago
>If you scratch or chip the paint steel will corrode this isn't really true. yes, exposed steel will show rust, but that's not what "corrodes" iron to the point of weakness. to corrode in a way that weakens iron, it needs to be kept wet over an extended period of time. If you've seen an old car with holes rusted through, that has occurred "from the inside" in places where water can collect and sit. The outside of objects will dry after rain, and such corrosion will never be a problem beyond aesthetics.
bumby 3y ago
>steel has no "magic" vibration absorbing qualities. Steel does have an infinite fatigue life while aluminum does not. From that standpoint, it is a more durable material.