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> so they live every second of their lives in fear. Seems like an oversimplification to me, and we don't know that they live their whole live in fear. We obser

> so they live every second of their lives in fear. Seems like an oversimplification to me, and we don't know that they live their whole live in fear. We observe playful and happy behavior in plenty of wild animals, not only in apex predators. > I am not convinced that when animals are grown by humans in appropriate conditions [...] They lack any kind of self determination, take a milk farm for example. The cows are inseminated/raped by humans until they die, children are taken away from their mothers shorty after birth, the girls are destined for a live of constant pregnancy, the boys for 9 month of power food and then the knife. So many animals that we use including many pets, would run away, if we opened the prison doors. I fail to see this form of enslavement as something positive. > Do you believe all predators are "morally wrong", or only humans?? No, I don't believe that. But I believe you are making a false equivalence here, I have no moral qualms with an indigenous group of people hunting for a living. I do have a problem with industrial scale exploitation, when we have reasonable plant based alternatives, heck personally I don't even mind industrial scale insect farming. Do you think that two angry humans killing each other over a conflict is the same thing as industrial scale genocide with labor camps?

smegger001 3y ago
If you think we are raping cows when they are artificially inseminated, I hope you are equally horrified by natural animal sex. Everything from penis spines to traumatic insemination, to dolphin rape gangs, and worse exist in animal sex. And the there is oven nothing resembing consent asked or given. Its humans and bonaboo and thats pretty much it that who do it nicely most of the time.
- Voultapher 3y ago
  I see your point, indeed by human standards consent and in general a lack of cruelty are not what defines wild animal life. At the same time I believe there is an important difference between humans doing it in an industry setting and it happening in the wild. Additionally, even ignoring the insemination point, I'd say the big picture remains the same. For me the big picture is a question of self determination, in the wild, female mammals usually have more than zero control over who they mate with, in the setting of a farm her head gets locked into place between bars so she can't move away when a human plunges a probe into her.
- philistine 3y ago
  If you intend to maintain the falsehood that cows’ sex is not completely denatured, you’re simply wrong. We have manufactured species that are easier to manipulate, that are incapable of surviving without us. We cause untold misery on them to give us food. We do that, because it’s cheap. I don’t fool myself. Any industrial food industry is built on a foundation of manufactured pain.
brabel 3y ago
I do agree that animal "factories" are wrong. I think we disagree only on a minor point: I think that it's not wrong for humans to domesticate and "grow" animals if they do it in a "humane" (I don't know a better word here) way where the animals do not suffer and have ways to enjoy their lives, whatever that may be, while I believe you're saying that's also wrong and only hunting wild animals is acceptable? > We observe playful and happy behavior in plenty of wild animals, not only in apex predators. I don't know... you may see that in an environment heavily modified by humans, like National Parks or zoos... but in really wild environments, there would be a healthy population of predators that "control" the population of those animals they hunt, so it seems it's almost inevitable that if you're prey, in a real wild environment, you would need to be on your toes absolutely all the time. This is what I've observed from the little interactions I had with really wild environments. > Do you think that two angry humans killing each other over a conflict is the same thing as industrial scale genocide with labor camps? That's a weird questions to ask, I don't see any relation whatsoever with what is being discussed.
- Voultapher 3y ago
  There is no version of animal farming that if you did the same with humans wouldn't constitute human rights violations. Why should we be special? "Hey, my slaves are well fed, happy and they are even allowed to sleep in the house, where's your problem man." > That's a weird questions to ask, I don't see any relation whatsoever with what is being discussed. I painted a false equivalence in a related field with the same tools you did. In both cases people are killed, but the details matter. And for our discussion, killing animals != killing animals.
  - gambiting 3y ago
    >>There is no version of animal farming that if you did the same with humans wouldn't constitute human rights violations. Look at the way cattle and sheep are farmed over moorlands in the UK, the animals are literally left alone on land hundreds of hectares large, they live in as "natural" environment as physically possible. We can argue that a human left in those conditions would be unhappy with the still limited space, but I don't think we can argue in good faith that any animal is "unhappy" in those circumstances.

smegger001 3y ago

If you think we are raping cows when they are artificially inseminated, I hope you are equally horrified by natural animal sex. Everything from penis spines to traumatic insemination, to dolphin rape gangs, and worse exist in animal sex. And the there is oven nothing resembing consent asked or given. Its humans and bonaboo and thats pretty much it that who do it nicely most of the time.

Voultapher 3y ago
I see your point, indeed by human standards consent and in general a lack of cruelty are not what defines wild animal life. At the same time I believe there is an important difference between humans doing it in an industry setting and it happening in the wild. Additionally, even ignoring the insemination point, I'd say the big picture remains the same. For me the big picture is a question of self determination, in the wild, female mammals usually have more than zero control over who they mate with, in the setting of a farm her head gets locked into place between bars so she can't move away when a human plunges a probe into her.
philistine 3y ago
If you intend to maintain the falsehood that cows’ sex is not completely denatured, you’re simply wrong. We have manufactured species that are easier to manipulate, that are incapable of surviving without us. We cause untold misery on them to give us food. We do that, because it’s cheap. I don’t fool myself. Any industrial food industry is built on a foundation of manufactured pain.

brabel 3y ago

I do agree that animal "factories" are wrong. I think we disagree only on a minor point: I think that it's not wrong for humans to domesticate and "grow" animals if they do it in a "humane" (I don't know a better word here) way where the animals do not suffer and have ways to enjoy their lives, whatever that may be, while I believe you're saying that's also wrong and only hunting wild animals is acceptable? > We observe playful and happy behavior in plenty of wild animals, not only in apex predators. I don't know... you may see that in an environment heavily modified by humans, like National Parks or zoos... but in really wild environments, there would be a healthy population of predators that "control" the population of those animals they hunt, so it seems it's almost inevitable that if you're prey, in a real wild environment, you would need to be on your toes absolutely all the time. This is what I've observed from the little interactions I had with really wild environments. > Do you think that two angry humans killing each other over a conflict is the same thing as industrial scale genocide with labor camps? That's a weird questions to ask, I don't see any relation whatsoever with what is being discussed.

Voultapher 3y ago
There is no version of animal farming that if you did the same with humans wouldn't constitute human rights violations. Why should we be special? "Hey, my slaves are well fed, happy and they are even allowed to sleep in the house, where's your problem man." > That's a weird questions to ask, I don't see any relation whatsoever with what is being discussed. I painted a false equivalence in a related field with the same tools you did. In both cases people are killed, but the details matter. And for our discussion, killing animals != killing animals.
- gambiting 3y ago
  >>There is no version of animal farming that if you did the same with humans wouldn't constitute human rights violations. Look at the way cattle and sheep are farmed over moorlands in the UK, the animals are literally left alone on land hundreds of hectares large, they live in as "natural" environment as physically possible. We can argue that a human left in those conditions would be unhappy with the still limited space, but I don't think we can argue in good faith that any animal is "unhappy" in those circumstances.