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Its not a strong argument. Denying nature is what we do constantly. We teach our children to shit in a bowl that flushes water instead of shitting on the ground

Its not a strong argument. Denying nature is what we do constantly. We teach our children to shit in a bowl that flushes water instead of shitting on the ground, we teach them to delay their gratification s, we tell them not to use violence, we teach them to ask for consent. All unnatural things to do. Are you saying these are not wise things to do?

defrost 3y ago
[flagged]
brabel 3y ago
You misunderstand what "natural" means. Nature doesn't care at all about those things. But as a social species, we evolved some "rules" which ensure our survival. In that sense, some of our morality has roots in nature and evolution. So I don't agree at all that by not using violence all the time we're going against our nature. But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. In most regions where humans live today, without meat or foods imported from faraway regions, we couldn't survive.
- bawolff 3y ago
  > But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. If it was the only way this would be more compelling. However it is just the easiest way. Like arguably the best way to get money is to mug someone, but i don't think that makes it ethical when there are alternatives.
viraptor 3y ago
Nature is adaptation for survival. I think you're mixing up "the old ways" with "naturally beneficial ways". Your chances of survival and reproduction are much higher with access to modern toilets, delayed gratification, no unnecessary violence, and due to society asking for consent. It's perfectly natural.
- card_zero 3y ago
  So "natural" includes anything artificial, so long as it's adaptive. This is a peculiar definition of the word.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    "artificial" itself needs expanding on to use in this discussion. Are tools artificial? Where's the threshold? Stick, hammer, wrench, electric drill? Or is it only natural if we're naked collecting fruit?

defrost 3y ago

[flagged]

brabel 3y ago

You misunderstand what "natural" means. Nature doesn't care at all about those things. But as a social species, we evolved some "rules" which ensure our survival. In that sense, some of our morality has roots in nature and evolution. So I don't agree at all that by not using violence all the time we're going against our nature. But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. In most regions where humans live today, without meat or foods imported from faraway regions, we couldn't survive.

bawolff 3y ago
> But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. If it was the only way this would be more compelling. However it is just the easiest way. Like arguably the best way to get money is to mug someone, but i don't think that makes it ethical when there are alternatives.

viraptor 3y ago

Nature is adaptation for survival. I think you're mixing up "the old ways" with "naturally beneficial ways". Your chances of survival and reproduction are much higher with access to modern toilets, delayed gratification, no unnecessary violence, and due to society asking for consent. It's perfectly natural.

card_zero 3y ago
So "natural" includes anything artificial, so long as it's adaptive. This is a peculiar definition of the word.
- viraptor 3y ago
  "artificial" itself needs expanding on to use in this discussion. Are tools artificial? Where's the threshold? Stick, hammer, wrench, electric drill? Or is it only natural if we're naked collecting fruit?