4 ms·

Most animals in the wild live very tough, short lives and have high likelihood that they be killed and eaten by predators, so they live every second of their li

by brabel 3y ago

Most animals in the wild live very tough, short lives and have high likelihood that they be killed and eaten by predators, so they live every second of their lives in fear. I am not convinced that when animals are grown by humans in appropriate conditions (i.e. not overcrowded sausage factories), given all the food they need and able to "enjoy" (this is a human emotion, but perhaps they have an analogous "feeling" when out in nature?) nature while being protected, it's really wrong. We are part of nature and our physiology made us capable of eating meat, just like all other predators. Do you believe all predators are "morally wrong", or only humans?? Denying our nature never seems like a very wise thing.

pineaux 3y ago
Its not a strong argument. Denying nature is what we do constantly. We teach our children to shit in a bowl that flushes water instead of shitting on the ground, we teach them to delay their gratification s, we tell them not to use violence, we teach them to ask for consent. All unnatural things to do. Are you saying these are not wise things to do?
- defrost 3y ago
  [flagged]
- brabel 3y ago
  You misunderstand what "natural" means. Nature doesn't care at all about those things. But as a social species, we evolved some "rules" which ensure our survival. In that sense, some of our morality has roots in nature and evolution. So I don't agree at all that by not using violence all the time we're going against our nature. But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. In most regions where humans live today, without meat or foods imported from faraway regions, we couldn't survive.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    > But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. If it was the only way this would be more compelling. However it is just the easiest way. Like arguably the best way to get money is to mug someone, but i don't think that makes it ethical when there are alternatives.
- viraptor 3y ago
  Nature is adaptation for survival. I think you're mixing up "the old ways" with "naturally beneficial ways". Your chances of survival and reproduction are much higher with access to modern toilets, delayed gratification, no unnecessary violence, and due to society asking for consent. It's perfectly natural.
  - card_zero 3y ago
    So "natural" includes anything artificial, so long as it's adaptive. This is a peculiar definition of the word.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      "artificial" itself needs expanding on to use in this discussion. Are tools artificial? Where's the threshold? Stick, hammer, wrench, electric drill? Or is it only natural if we're naked collecting fruit?
Voultapher 3y ago
> so they live every second of their lives in fear. Seems like an oversimplification to me, and we don't know that they live their whole live in fear. We observe playful and happy behavior in plenty of wild animals, not only in apex predators. > I am not convinced that when animals are grown by humans in appropriate conditions [...] They lack any kind of self determination, take a milk farm for example. The cows are inseminated/raped by humans until they die, children are taken away from their mothers shorty after birth, the girls are destined for a live of constant pregnancy, the boys for 9 month of power food and then the knife. So many animals that we use including many pets, would run away, if we opened the prison doors. I fail to see this form of enslavement as something positive. > Do you believe all predators are "morally wrong", or only humans?? No, I don't believe that. But I believe you are making a false equivalence here, I have no moral qualms with an indigenous group of people hunting for a living. I do have a problem with industrial scale exploitation, when we have reasonable plant based alternatives, heck personally I don't even mind industrial scale insect farming. Do you think that two angry humans killing each other over a conflict is the same thing as industrial scale genocide with labor camps?
- smegger001 3y ago
  If you think we are raping cows when they are artificially inseminated, I hope you are equally horrified by natural animal sex. Everything from penis spines to traumatic insemination, to dolphin rape gangs, and worse exist in animal sex. And the there is oven nothing resembing consent asked or given. Its humans and bonaboo and thats pretty much it that who do it nicely most of the time.
  - Voultapher 3y ago
    I see your point, indeed by human standards consent and in general a lack of cruelty are not what defines wild animal life. At the same time I believe there is an important difference between humans doing it in an industry setting and it happening in the wild. Additionally, even ignoring the insemination point, I'd say the big picture remains the same. For me the big picture is a question of self determination, in the wild, female mammals usually have more than zero control over who they mate with, in the setting of a farm her head gets locked into place between bars so she can't move away when a human plunges a probe into her.
theCodeStig 3y ago
predators hunt, humans farm
- Brybry 3y ago
  Not really, farming is a clever hack that we only learned in the last ~12,000 years [1] The evidence is that most of our existence we hunted and gathered nomadically. [1] https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/development-agriculture/ https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/developmen...

by brabel 3y ago

pineaux 3y ago

Its not a strong argument. Denying nature is what we do constantly. We teach our children to shit in a bowl that flushes water instead of shitting on the ground, we teach them to delay their gratification s, we tell them not to use violence, we teach them to ask for consent. All unnatural things to do. Are you saying these are not wise things to do?

defrost 3y ago
[flagged]
brabel 3y ago
You misunderstand what "natural" means. Nature doesn't care at all about those things. But as a social species, we evolved some "rules" which ensure our survival. In that sense, some of our morality has roots in nature and evolution. So I don't agree at all that by not using violence all the time we're going against our nature. But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. In most regions where humans live today, without meat or foods imported from faraway regions, we couldn't survive.
- bawolff 3y ago
  > But in the case of food, I believe we are, because evidently we require certain substances to survive, and one of the best ways to get those is to eat meat. If it was the only way this would be more compelling. However it is just the easiest way. Like arguably the best way to get money is to mug someone, but i don't think that makes it ethical when there are alternatives.
viraptor 3y ago
Nature is adaptation for survival. I think you're mixing up "the old ways" with "naturally beneficial ways". Your chances of survival and reproduction are much higher with access to modern toilets, delayed gratification, no unnecessary violence, and due to society asking for consent. It's perfectly natural.
- card_zero 3y ago
  So "natural" includes anything artificial, so long as it's adaptive. This is a peculiar definition of the word.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    "artificial" itself needs expanding on to use in this discussion. Are tools artificial? Where's the threshold? Stick, hammer, wrench, electric drill? Or is it only natural if we're naked collecting fruit?

Voultapher 3y ago

> so they live every second of their lives in fear. Seems like an oversimplification to me, and we don't know that they live their whole live in fear. We observe playful and happy behavior in plenty of wild animals, not only in apex predators. > I am not convinced that when animals are grown by humans in appropriate conditions [...] They lack any kind of self determination, take a milk farm for example. The cows are inseminated/raped by humans until they die, children are taken away from their mothers shorty after birth, the girls are destined for a live of constant pregnancy, the boys for 9 month of power food and then the knife. So many animals that we use including many pets, would run away, if we opened the prison doors. I fail to see this form of enslavement as something positive. > Do you believe all predators are "morally wrong", or only humans?? No, I don't believe that. But I believe you are making a false equivalence here, I have no moral qualms with an indigenous group of people hunting for a living. I do have a problem with industrial scale exploitation, when we have reasonable plant based alternatives, heck personally I don't even mind industrial scale insect farming. Do you think that two angry humans killing each other over a conflict is the same thing as industrial scale genocide with labor camps?

smegger001 3y ago
If you think we are raping cows when they are artificially inseminated, I hope you are equally horrified by natural animal sex. Everything from penis spines to traumatic insemination, to dolphin rape gangs, and worse exist in animal sex. And the there is oven nothing resembing consent asked or given. Its humans and bonaboo and thats pretty much it that who do it nicely most of the time.
- Voultapher 3y ago
  I see your point, indeed by human standards consent and in general a lack of cruelty are not what defines wild animal life. At the same time I believe there is an important difference between humans doing it in an industry setting and it happening in the wild. Additionally, even ignoring the insemination point, I'd say the big picture remains the same. For me the big picture is a question of self determination, in the wild, female mammals usually have more than zero control over who they mate with, in the setting of a farm her head gets locked into place between bars so she can't move away when a human plunges a probe into her.

theCodeStig 3y ago

predators hunt, humans farm

Brybry 3y ago
Not really, farming is a clever hack that we only learned in the last ~12,000 years [1] The evidence is that most of our existence we hunted and gathered nomadically. [1] https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/development-agriculture/ https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/developmen...