3 ms·

Did you read the article? It’s not even close to a drop in fuel. The engines needed conversion. More important, ammonia is nasty. If you have an open containe

by amluto 3y ago

Did you read the article? It’s not even close to a drop in fuel. The engines needed conversion. More important, ammonia is nasty. If you have an open container of diesel fuel, it’s messy if you spill it and quite bad for the environment if you spill a lot of it. If you have an open container of anhydrous ammonia in front of you, it will likely kill you.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
While ammonia is not without its challenges you mention, it’s already shipped as fertilizer today and is easier (relatively) to store than hydrogen at the quantities required for marine propulsion. This is why the industry has focused most of its effort on ammonia for cleaner energy. It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives (and where energy density and combustion are non negotiable; fuel cells are still not production ready for marine applications for tens of MW of output). https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-is-on-to-build-the-worlds-first-ammonia-powered-ship https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-... https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-maritime-fuel.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-mar...
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  > It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives. Ammonia is definitely not the least worst option. Both methanol and biodiesel as better than it, both price wise and because they are not highly toxic gasses. > As part of the safety protocols for the conduct of these tests, crew members also donned personal protection equipment such as chemical protection suits, nitrile chemical gloves, rubber boots, positive pressure mask and hood, and portable gas detectors for the relevant operations. I guess they'll have to wear that 24/7?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. I agree that if either of these fuels can be produced below the cost of ammonia produced using renewable energy, using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally.
    - _aavaa_ 3y ago
      > Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. This is true, but I don't get your point. We can argue about whether it's a good use of crops/farmland just as we can argue if electricity->H2 + N2 -> ammonia is a good use of electricity. > Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. The same can be said about Ammonia once you need to source your H2. > using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. That's a restriction that I don't see as justified. At least not for the biodiesel. > A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally. I agree. Further than that, we will stop shipping iron ore across the world to smelt it only to ship it back since the price of fuel will go up regardless of what we switch to. So shipping volume will decrease further.
      - lazide 3y ago
        H2 can be extracted from seawater (or freshwater) ‘easily’ and nitrogen is the most abundant gas in the atmosphere. Everything else you mention requires those things AND a lot more work. So why not go directly where we want to go? Hell, biodiesel will even require nitrogen fertilizer and fresh water, plus a lot of faffing around with sensitive crops.
        _aavaa_ 3y ago
        > H2 can be extracted from seawater (or freshwater) ‘easily’ and nitrogen is the most abundant gas in the atmosphere. 'easily' indeed. The problems are the very large electricity demands, difficulty in storage and moving from place to place. The fact that Nitrogen is abundant is irrelevant. The hard part isn't finding it. The hard part is getting it to react with the H2 to form ammonia. As for freshwater vs saltwater. The energy (and cost) required to go from salt water to pure water for the electrolyzer is a rounding error compared to the energy (and cost) required to go from pure water to H2.

by amluto 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago

While ammonia is not without its challenges you mention, it’s already shipped as fertilizer today and is easier (relatively) to store than hydrogen at the quantities required for marine propulsion. This is why the industry has focused most of its effort on ammonia for cleaner energy. It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives (and where energy density and combustion are non negotiable; fuel cells are still not production ready for marine applications for tens of MW of output). https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-is-on-to-build-the-worlds-first-ammonia-powered-ship https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-... https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-maritime-fuel.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-mar...

_aavaa_ 3y ago
> It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives. Ammonia is definitely not the least worst option. Both methanol and biodiesel as better than it, both price wise and because they are not highly toxic gasses. > As part of the safety protocols for the conduct of these tests, crew members also donned personal protection equipment such as chemical protection suits, nitrile chemical gloves, rubber boots, positive pressure mask and hood, and portable gas detectors for the relevant operations. I guess they'll have to wear that 24/7?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. I agree that if either of these fuels can be produced below the cost of ammonia produced using renewable energy, using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    > Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. This is true, but I don't get your point. We can argue about whether it's a good use of crops/farmland just as we can argue if electricity->H2 + N2 -> ammonia is a good use of electricity. > Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. The same can be said about Ammonia once you need to source your H2. > using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. That's a restriction that I don't see as justified. At least not for the biodiesel. > A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally. I agree. Further than that, we will stop shipping iron ore across the world to smelt it only to ship it back since the price of fuel will go up regardless of what we switch to. So shipping volume will decrease further.
    - lazide 3y ago
      H2 can be extracted from seawater (or freshwater) ‘easily’ and nitrogen is the most abundant gas in the atmosphere. Everything else you mention requires those things AND a lot more work. So why not go directly where we want to go? Hell, biodiesel will even require nitrogen fertilizer and fresh water, plus a lot of faffing around with sensitive crops.
      - _aavaa_ 3y ago
        > H2 can be extracted from seawater (or freshwater) ‘easily’ and nitrogen is the most abundant gas in the atmosphere. 'easily' indeed. The problems are the very large electricity demands, difficulty in storage and moving from place to place. The fact that Nitrogen is abundant is irrelevant. The hard part isn't finding it. The hard part is getting it to react with the H2 to form ammonia. As for freshwater vs saltwater. The energy (and cost) required to go from salt water to pure water for the electrolyzer is a rounding error compared to the energy (and cost) required to go from pure water to H2.