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Neuralink patient controls games by thinking during interview
- hablary 3y agoThat's pretty amazing, the fact he's able to click the pause button with his brain alone is insane to me - that's like Apple Vision Pro without the gigantic goggles.
- sambroner 3y agoThis is a good point. Seems like a likely candidate for an S curve in tech development. i.e. next 15 years of VR are improvements to camera, display, and tracking technology. Following 15 years are brain implants.
- maximus-decimus 3y agoI would be excited if I didn't fear them putting ads directly into my brain.
- ta988 3y agoThey don't need to put ads. they just need to make you go buy something.
- consumer451 3y agoPlease read my bio. BCIs are the final frontier of privacy. Let's not mess this up like we did internet tracking.
- sidewndr46 3y agoGood thing no Musk owned companies have a well established track record of faking the entire thing
- j4hdufd8 3y agolike?
- BadHumans 3y agoThey are referring to Tesla promotional FSD videos being heavily edited. https://www.pcmag.com/news/tesla-faked-autopilot-video-engineer-says https://www.pcmag.com/news/tesla-faked-autopilot-video-engin... While not an Musk company, it is worth remembering Theranos demos being convincingly faked as well. I don't know if it is happening here but it does happen.
- dkersten 3y agoDoesn’t have to be faked either, I remember the Emotiv made similar claims and had similar demos where to the best of my understanding eventually people figured out it wasn’t really reading your brainwaves but rather facial muscles or something (a friend of mine works in brain computer interfacing and explained it to me once but I don’t remember the details — it wasn’t that they were actively trying to mislead necessarily, more akin to leaking validation data into neural network training than to outright deceiving).
- TheAlchemist 3y agoI don't think it's fake in this sense - the technology already exists for quite some time - there are devices like that even allow people to talk - check Synchron for example. But it may be fake in the sense that it's not viable for a long term use and / or necessitates a very controlled environment. That would indeed match the pattern for Musk companies - articulate a grandiose vision, show a working demo to amaze the world, then show progress on some scale but without disclosing the issues that actually would make to product not viable or not financially viable in the long term, and sell the hell out of it to investors. If you look closely, all his companies work like that. Yes, including Tesla ! Their car business is at the point where they may start loosing money again - competition, slowdown in EV subsides, but also factors that allowed them to reach an apparent profitability - for example, their service is nonexistent, while it used to be great. Basically they sold millions of cars, while their service centers are still scaled for thousands, not millions. This will a big financial liability, but not really visible in their financial for now. But hey, they already transitioned to another business that promise to make even more money in the future with other promising tech ! AI anybody ?
- brettv2 3y agoI haven't followed Neuralink too closely since it was announced, so I was not expecting to see what I just saw. I've seen a handful of breakthrough moments in my life - I think this will be remembered as one.
- dev1ycan 3y agoI don't think the device itself is a breakthrough, the issue beforehand was that tissue in the brain tries to heal from the implant, it can be lethal, I don't know what they're doing to have a PERMANENT implant, completely stop that area from "healing" so tht the implant doesn't become a legitimate hazard.
- ggreer 3y agoThe main issues with previous BCIs were that the electrodes were larger, less flexible, and not as biocompatible. This caused scar tissue to form around the electrodes, degrading the quality of the signals and eventually making the device useless. Neuralink has apparently reduced scar tissue formation enough that the implant receives usable signals for years. Neuralink also uses far more electrodes, improving signal quality and adding redundancy. The number of electrodes necessitates the use of a robot to place them. The robot is programmed to avoid blood vessels, which also reduces bleeding and scarring. It will be quite a while before we know if they've managed to mitigate the issues enough to last a lifetime (and support upgrades), but it's better than previous devices.
- Veserv 3y agoCan you point to a study showing that Neuralink has achieved any of those things you mentioned? What evidence is there that the implants have reduced scar tissue formation and what supports the assertion that they would be usable for years? What other previous devices are you comparing it to that allows you to positively assert that it is better than them? You can not just reel off every bullet point on the marketing slides without support as if it is the truth.
- 3y ago
- ccozan 3y agoIt is fascinating. But looking at this guy condition, playing games would be IMHO not the prio. I would hook up the remote controlling to a robotic exoskeleton, for just be back and function normal. I guess that also can be detected ( intention to move feet or hands in any direction ). But let's see, we are really at the beginning.
- justrealist 3y agoWell I don't think those exoskeletons even really exist yet. So baby steps.
- Firaxus 3y agoOf course, but that’s going to take so much more time and effort. You can see how much joy this man is in just having the autonomy to move a mouse again. That’s honestly amazing.
- modeless 3y agoI don't think it can simultaneously control the dozens of degrees of freedom that a robot would have. Yet. You only need three degrees of freedom for a mouse with button. That alone is transformational for a quadriplegic.
- logtempo 3y agothere is good works done in this article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06094-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06094-5 https://www.cea.fr/english/Pages/News/brain-computer-interface-enables-thought-controlled-walking-after-spinal-cord-injury.aspx https://www.cea.fr/english/Pages/News/brain-computer-interfa...
- timschmidt 3y agoBetter than an exoskeleton is a second implant below his C4/5 to reconnect his spinal chord with his brain via wifi.
- johnsimer 3y agoThat is very likely neuralink’s plan IIRC they are doing that test in pigs right now
- Firaxus 3y agoThe sheer joy on this mans face to be able to freely control a mouse again, and engage with general technology. If they’re able to make this into a generally safe procedure, a lot of people will be interested in just that.
- mdeeks 3y agoI love that one of the first things he said he did was binge on Civilization 6 until 6am. Welcome back, buddy! Strangely that simple example was the most powerful part for me. I've done that so many times and it was such a fun experience. Now he gets to re-live that joy (and follow up shame) again!
- heavyset_go 3y agoI'm curious if he's signed any type of NDA or non-disparagement agreement to receive the implant.
- escapecharacter 3y agoI don't think they'd have to do that - the implant could simply prevent any disparaging output.
- ShamelessC 3y agoHar har.
- whamlastxmas 3y agoThey probably interviewed him to see if he’d be a good person for PR reasons. And I imagine he got it for free. So he has plenty to be happy about with the situation
- heavyset_go 3y agoI'd rather hear about his own experiences from the man himself, without someone from Neuralink standing over him and hyping it for a press release.
- whamlastxmas 2y agoHe’s on twitter expressing his own opinion all the time
- heavyset_go 2y agoHence why I'm asking if he signed an NDA or non-disparagement agreement.
- zachbee 3y agoFrom a technical perspective, moving a mouse with your mind isn't entirely new: https://elifesciences.org/articles/18554 https://elifesciences.org/articles/18554 Personally, I think the most exciting part of Neuralink and other companies working on BCIs is the fact that they're trying to keep these implants in long-term, and scale the deployment significantly. Most academic BCI research thus far has just been trials, without patients getting to keep the implants long term.
- panick21_ 3y agoMoving the mouse wasn't that impressive. That he could turn of the music just like that while the game was open was impressive. And Civ 6 is way more complex to operate compared to chess. I assume that's not mouse driven. Still early days for this tech but it seems impressive.
- mdeeks 3y agoCiv 6 can be entirely played via mouse
- dragonwriter 3y ago> And Civ 6 is way more complex to operate compared to chess. I assume that’s not mouse driven. Civ 6 is drivable completely with the mouse, and other than editing gold amounts in trade offers a little more quickly there’s not much reason to use anything but a mouse for it.
- jpetrantoni1 3y agoI assume moving the mouse is an intermediary step for the short term. Detecting intents and relating to actions is probably the medium term goal.
- babayetu-org 3y ago> "I played Civ 6 until 6AM" Neuralink has now achieved product market fit
- stavros 3y agoI never could get into Civ. Do you have any tutorials or a specific game edition to recommend? Maybe my issue is that it's too slow to get started with, but it seems like I'd enjoy it if I stuck with it.
- foota 3y agoFwiw I liked Civ 5 more, maybe give that one a go over Civ 6 if you haven't.
- op00to 3y agoPlay civ 2 first. The newer civs have so much extra stuff to make it overwhelming.
- stavros 3y agoAhh, that's a good idea, thanks!
- huytersd 3y agoYou either like it or you don’t. The inbuilt tutorial is pretty self explanatory and took me 15 mins to really get into it from scratch. It’s slow and turn based and that’s not for everyone. Factorio on the other hand took a while for me to start liking but that’s because it has a huge learning curve. I eventually got into it but it’s not something I crave playing.
- stavros 3y agoHmm, I'll power through, thanks. I do love Factorio, though.
- panick21_ 3y ago
- emsy 3y agoAs soon as you can stimulate tactile impressions it's over. You can put on your VR Headset and be in a completely different world. Eventually the interface for eyes and ears will improve, but tactility would be a huge step towards being in a completely virtual world.
- ZitchDog 3y agoI think at that point you could also stimulate visual/audio cortex as well - no headset needed!
- mrkstu 3y agoIt's going to take a long time to match the inbound bandwidth of the optic nerves. Lots of specialized cells involved. [0] I supposed we could just jack in directly, though I really don't want surgery latching onto my optic nerve. [0] https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9633-calculating-the-speed-of-sight/#:~:text=Human%20retinas%20have%20about%20ten,of%208.75%20megabits%20per%20second https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9633-calculating-the-....
- nozzlegear 3y agoSemi related tangent incoming: I’m reminded of a book I read last year named Semiosis by Sue Burke. Tiny spoiler warning I guess though not really, it’s just background world building that was used as motivation for side character’s growth. In the book, there was a Hitler-esque villain who existed long before the characters were born. The villain killed many billions of people. But through cloning, the societies of Earth punish this villain for their entire life by feeding them torturous scenarios through their brain implants. These were scenarios like being chased and eaten by a tiger, running naked through a frozen tundra, execution, etc. The clone thought it was entirely real because it was all in their brain implant, even though they were safe in a jail cell. And as an extra Black Mirror-y twist, anyone in that society could tune in with their own implant to watch the clone being tortured. I’m not really trying to cast doom and gloom on this brain implant tech, I think it’s neat. I was just reminded of the book I read when you mentioned simulating tactile impressions and virtual worlds. Pleasant simulations would be great, but even “benignly” scary ones like a virtual haunted house in your brain could be terrifying. (As someone who hates haunted houses.)
- ofek 3y agoThis makes me very excited! I have Spinal Muscular Atrophy type 2 [1] and I have lost most of my physical capabilities save for 2-3 fingers and of course speech. Although I am now on Nusinersen [2] treatments I am still becoming weaker over time, albeit extremely slowly. It brings me comfort to know that such a fallback will eventually exist, should I need one. Note that specialists are saying that another promising drug from Scholar Rock [3] would probably prevent any further weakening if used in conjunction with my current treatment. Unfortunately, the FDA takes a long time to approve new medications and I have heard this one is particularly special because there is potential for abuse by athletes. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_muscular_atrophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_muscular_atrophy [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusinersen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusinersen [3]: https://scholarrock.com/our-pipeline/spinal-muscular-atrophy/ https://scholarrock.com/our-pipeline/spinal-muscular-atrophy...
- jackblemming 3y agoI hope you can get on that promising drug ASAP and that it works wonders. I think the future looks bright for medicine with all these new breakthroughs coming out.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago[flagged]
- selfmodruntime 3y agoAnimal trials have always been used to further human medicine. Google searches let us assume that anywhere from 12 to 50 monkeys died during Neuralink trials. 100 billion animals are eaten every year.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoYup I don't feel sad at all anymore. Lets kill more monkeys!
- 3y ago
- helf 3y ago[dead]
- willwade 3y agoSome clarity for ppl. - Other techniques would likely work for this patient. Eyegaze technology is pretty readily available. He has proximity switches for driving his chair and lets not forget voice control. So.. what does BCIe offer significantly? I think this is the BIG problem BCI has. The gains are not enough for a lot of people compared to what the AT sector can already offer. Please remember this. This guy could use eyegaze or voice control on pretty regular hardware. And no surgery needed.. - These types of BCI are effectively an array of switches. You typically map a motor thought eg. "Move your arm up" => Moving the cursor up. This maybe how then you control a game such as chess if it has keyboard shortcuts. Eye movement could be done in the same way but there are easier ways. Interestingly to measure these motor commands you dont really need intracortical BCI. You can do it with surface EEG. Sticking it inside your head - closer to centres where you can measure intentional thought makes the signal cleaner and more reliable - The big breakthroughs is really making this intracortical stuff safer and long term. Its getting there. But this isnt it The big wins out there - are in speech BCI. Thats hardcore. Even the two main studies doing this - each of the participants requires a LOT of training time to make a Machine model work efficiently.
- gitfan86 3y agoThey are taking an iterative approach. Look at the starship program for an example of where you can get in 20 iterations
- busymom0 3y agoI think once this tech can be used to connect to a robot / exoskeleton, then it will be very useful for someone like him. Imagine him thinking that he wants an apple from the fridge in another room and the robot goes and grabs it for him.
- willwade 3y agoYeah I agree. In reality though - right now - I'd say you might be surprised to what people actually want and need. For example I could assess someone for say a curtain opener or door opener. I have fallen into the trap of assuming that someone would want this. In reality though its very few people who do. Why? Its totally overkill and pointless when 90% they are with someone who will just open the door anyway. (NB: This isnt Everyone - the ubiquity of home control systems on the regular commercial marketplace is changing this I think)
- wilg 3y agoA key differentiator of Neuralink is that the implant can both read and write through ~1000 channels (each of which is a tiny wire into the brain). So it's not really the same thing as external devices that read electrical activity from outside the brain, because those cannot write data. Not sure if the initial implant supports much of this, obviously you'd start with the simplest use cases.
- samatman 3y agoWhich is why I will never get anything like that installed unless I'm paralyzed or effectively so. Humans have no mechanism for recognizing that a sensation, thought, or emotion, which arises within themselves, is actually inserted by malware. No thanks.
- wilg 3y agoI'd just wait like a decade and see how it's going.
- ein0p 3y agoThe inspiration for this (as well as for SpaceX) comes from the “Culture” series of novels by Iain M. Banks, which most people are apparently unfamiliar with. Specifically the BCI interface is called “neural lace” there and it grows along with the brain from a seed and covers its entire surface. There it serves as an interface to access superhuman AIs and information in general, on demand, and only the hopeless luddites choose not to have it
- ShamelessC 3y agoSorry but surely the idea of having a brain computer interface predates the Culture novels by many decades. Similarly, how are these books the inspiration for SpaceX? Those ideas of traveling the stars (well, planets) _absolutely_ predate the culture series. Seems pretty obvious to me that these ideas originated long ago in the scientific world and were (beautifully) expanded upon by science fiction authors (again, many decades ago).
- 0x64 3y agoThe names of SpaceX’s drone ships, such as “Of Course I Still Love You”, are from the Culture novels
- ShamelessC 3y agoOh so grand parent was referring to the names?
- ein0p 3y agoNot the idea itself, but this specific implementation. Musk has clearly read quite a bit of Banks and Heinlein.
- ShamelessC 3y agoThat’s fair I suppose but it’s probably giving more credit to Musk than he deserves. The real work is all being done by researchers who are drastically more knowledgeable about all of this than he is. He’s wise to invest in these sorts of ideas though and deserves credit for that.
- ricokatayama 3y agoIs it EEG? or any other tech?
- ricokatayama 3y agoAlmost out of the loop about Neuralink's tech. Is it EEG?
- AlexCoventry 3y agoIt's previously involved neural implantation in animals. The video doesn't make it clear what's going on, here.
- ta988 3y agonot exactly it is a bunch of wires measuring differential voltages inside the brain not on surface of the skull. So you get a much better specificity in the signals (think of it as resolution). even if you out 1000 probes on a skull you wouldn't get much information.
- random9749832 3y agoEvery possible breakthrough is now a demo on Twitter without much technical context.
- mplewis 3y agoI’ll believe this when it’s independently verified.
- londons_explore 3y agoI want to know how big the GPU crunching all the numbers is to make this work... The mouse seems to move very nicely and smoothly (60 FPS?) which presumably means the neural net which converts raw sensor data to mouse movements is running in ~15 milliseconds. Most neural nets don't do a forward pass in 15ms unless they're either tiny or the GPU is very powerful.
- londons_explore 3y agoI'd like to know if they're doing 'online training' - ie. Do the weights of the neural net which converts raw signal data into mouse movements update themselves every few seconds using historical data? Such online training might be necessary to deal with brain plasticity - ie. The optimal set of neurons to read to determine X/Y mouse movement right now might not be the same set it was an hour ago. Such plasticity can be seen in regular humans too when they say 'whoa, I haven't used a pen for months - let me get used to writing again!'.
- londons_explore 3y agoThis video kinda looks like the patient really likes their new implant and it's abilities, but is pretty frustrated they now need to do more trials/make marketing videos for the implant when they just want to get on with their life...
- notso411 3y ago[dead]
- jjslocum3 3y agoMusk says "Blindsight is the next @Neuralink product after Telepathy." Let's see, I think after that, the next product should be Magic Missle. Or maybe Sanctuary?
- soygem 3y agoOh my fauci! I can't wait to get ads served directly into my brain