4 ms·

Formula 1 chief appalled to find team using Excel to manage 20k car parts

57 points by nickthegreek 3y ago

bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
Let me guess, he wants to build it in rust.
Rinzler89 3y ago
I'm surprised this is reaching mainstream news now. It was known for a long time, before Vowles joined Williams, that it was in the shit, underfunded and that they were using Excel files sent via email attachments, instead of a proper ERP system. It's not surprising this happens actually, when as a F1 team principal, your goal and job security is tied to scoring points at this year's season, not setting up a multi-year plan to update your IT infrastructure and processes, because if you don't score enough points, you might not be around next year to see your grand plan bear fruit. And if you're like Williams, failing, underfunded and replace your TP every year, who's only there as a scapegoat, no wonder nothing ever improves. It basically the trap of perverse incentives and very low job security. F1 shareholders won't care that you replaced Excel with an efficient ERP system, If you don't score any points on the track, you're out. Anyway, they're not alone. People would be surprised how many well respected and profitable companies still run like this. But F1 is special here. Adrian Newey, the genius race car designer and head of aerodynamics at Red Bull only uses a drafting board for design, never CAD, or any computers actually, to the point his secretary prints his emails and CAE simulations for him on paper[1] and works on those, to the point he is surrounded by mountains of paper. The tech community would be livid to see this. [1] https://youtu.be/PNuQMmnTpoo?si=58yMTzNB9a815FoM&t=115 https://youtu.be/PNuQMmnTpoo?si=58yMTzNB9a815FoM&t=115
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago
  > and that they were using Excel files sent via email attachments That hurt to read. Not even the whole "cloud collaboration-enabled" Google Sheets/Microsoft365 excel?
- atonse 3y ago
  The difference with Adrian Newey is that whatever he’s doing works, and the rest of the org is using all the high tech aerodynamic modeling. Red Bull is so far ahead (largely due to Aero) that it’s boring to watch. But it’s not like the excel sheets are giving Williams an edge.
- jlawer 3y ago
  My understanding is that they were tracking significantly fewer parts in Excel as many of what they are now tracking as separate parts were previously tracked as a single part (kind of an assembly). I think they were previously tracking somewhere in the 100-200 parts in Excel. My understanding for why this is coming out now is that there was a talk Vowles has done recently where he mentioned the massive hit getting ready for this season because they changed both Excel into the new ERP systems AND started tracking each individual part, which complicated the transition and why it was such a rush for Williams to be ready for this year.
presentation 3y ago
Can’t wait to see their reaction when they realize just how much of society and commerce is also managed by giant Excel sheets.
- karmakaze 3y ago
  The worst I saw was a network hardware and service provider maintaining all their products and services in Excel spreadsheets per contract. Each of those had all the relevant information, the list of products, when they were due for renewal, service, or replacement, and the agreed-upon rates. I was there to get them off that system doing ETL to Oracle, which was only the first part of getting it to SAP. It was interesting to see all the diverse and creative ways that the structure and formatting of these contract spreadsheets diverged. The worst was encoding crucial information in colors or other styles of the cells. That required automation from both outside and inside the spreadsheet, as well as develop a full library of heuristics to determine which strategy to use to visually parse the sheets. Looking back, I don't even know how this wasn't a multi-year project and it got done (at least the pre-SAP parts) on-time. Even then, half the work was still on the Oracle side once the data was there but barely normalized (what's less than 0NF?).
  - euroderf 3y ago
    Oracle? From frying pan to fire.
- _boffin_ 3y ago
  And or access databases. +7 years ago, heard JPM had +20k of those on their networks. I just shiver thinking about that.
- elforce002 3y ago
  There are still opportunities for us SWEs even with the advent of chatGPT. Heck, lots of businesses are just an IG page + Google Sheets.
  - rrr_oh_man 3y ago
Havoc 3y ago
Wait until he hears about banks and the cursed things they build on top of excel
- ideamotor 3y ago
  modern day horror show
nunez 3y ago
At least they weren't using Access.
- bonki 3y ago
  I've been wondering for 25 years if there has ever been a legitimate use case for this abomination.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Trojan gift horse for undermining the competition .. once they're hip deep and headed deeper into Access dependancy you're free to play the field without concern of them catching up.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Optimal_Persona 3y ago
    In 20 years I've encountered precisely one Access Database that was very well designed, adequately documented, and implemented correctly - meaning people used a single instance on a specific machine, or Remote Desktop Protocol'd into same. Connecting to an Access database over a network from individual client apps is a recipe for pain as the database file gets locked, so then people start saving "copy of copy of copy USE THIS ONE" versions and you get divergent database backends with no clean way to merge. IME this always happens for business critical Access systems with no backup and documentation at the least convenient time, and suddenly it's IT's problem/fault. Yes you can connect to a SQL Server backend, but then it's IT's problem/fault/responsibility to maintain, and it takes Access out of the "simple enough for business users" domain. That said, as a rapid app development desktop tool Access can work very well if you know its limitations. It's somewhat surprising MS never made a 365 web-first equivalent, but that's probably because they'd rather charge for Dynamics 365 licenses and Azure SQL hosting.
- Clubber 3y ago
  Access is great for small companies if it's schema'd properly. The problem is when those small companies outgrow it; it's a complete rewrite. I believe you can point it to a MSSQL backend, but it's been a couple decades since I've used it. It's certainly a step up from Excel.
theGnuMe 3y ago
I thought Palantir was used now…
Woodi 3y ago
"Beyond Excel" ! The Cloud ! F1 - World where IT isn't allowed ! Just only MS IT... On the other hand Excel looks like quite stable piece of software - more then 1 milion of rows... (\s & ^\s)

57 points by nickthegreek 3y ago

Let me guess, he wants to build it in rust.

I'm surprised this is reaching mainstream news now. It was known for a long time, before Vowles joined Williams, that it was in the shit, underfunded and that they were using Excel files sent via email attachments, instead of a proper ERP system. It's not surprising this happens actually, when as a F1 team principal, your goal and job security is tied to scoring points at this year's season, not setting up a multi-year plan to update your IT infrastructure and processes, because if you don't score enough points, you might not be around next year to see your grand plan bear fruit. And if you're like Williams, failing, underfunded and replace your TP every year, who's only there as a scapegoat, no wonder nothing ever improves. It basically the trap of perverse incentives and very low job security. F1 shareholders won't care that you replaced Excel with an efficient ERP system, If you don't score any points on the track, you're out. Anyway, they're not alone. People would be surprised how many well respected and profitable companies still run like this. But F1 is special here. Adrian Newey, the genius race car designer and head of aerodynamics at Red Bull only uses a drafting board for design, never CAD, or any computers actually, to the point his secretary prints his emails and CAE simulations for him on paper[1] and works on those, to the point he is surrounded by mountains of paper. The tech community would be livid to see this. [1] https://youtu.be/PNuQMmnTpoo?si=58yMTzNB9a815FoM&t=115 https://youtu.be/PNuQMmnTpoo?si=58yMTzNB9a815FoM&t=115

MuffinFlavored 3y ago
> and that they were using Excel files sent via email attachments That hurt to read. Not even the whole "cloud collaboration-enabled" Google Sheets/Microsoft365 excel?
atonse 3y ago
The difference with Adrian Newey is that whatever he’s doing works, and the rest of the org is using all the high tech aerodynamic modeling. Red Bull is so far ahead (largely due to Aero) that it’s boring to watch. But it’s not like the excel sheets are giving Williams an edge.
jlawer 3y ago
My understanding is that they were tracking significantly fewer parts in Excel as many of what they are now tracking as separate parts were previously tracked as a single part (kind of an assembly). I think they were previously tracking somewhere in the 100-200 parts in Excel. My understanding for why this is coming out now is that there was a talk Vowles has done recently where he mentioned the massive hit getting ready for this season because they changed both Excel into the new ERP systems AND started tracking each individual part, which complicated the transition and why it was such a rush for Williams to be ready for this year.

presentation 3y ago

Can’t wait to see their reaction when they realize just how much of society and commerce is also managed by giant Excel sheets.

karmakaze 3y ago
The worst I saw was a network hardware and service provider maintaining all their products and services in Excel spreadsheets per contract. Each of those had all the relevant information, the list of products, when they were due for renewal, service, or replacement, and the agreed-upon rates. I was there to get them off that system doing ETL to Oracle, which was only the first part of getting it to SAP. It was interesting to see all the diverse and creative ways that the structure and formatting of these contract spreadsheets diverged. The worst was encoding crucial information in colors or other styles of the cells. That required automation from both outside and inside the spreadsheet, as well as develop a full library of heuristics to determine which strategy to use to visually parse the sheets. Looking back, I don't even know how this wasn't a multi-year project and it got done (at least the pre-SAP parts) on-time. Even then, half the work was still on the Oracle side once the data was there but barely normalized (what's less than 0NF?).
- euroderf 3y ago
  Oracle? From frying pan to fire.
_boffin_ 3y ago
And or access databases. +7 years ago, heard JPM had +20k of those on their networks. I just shiver thinking about that.
elforce002 3y ago
There are still opportunities for us SWEs even with the advent of chatGPT. Heck, lots of businesses are just an IG page + Google Sheets.
- rrr_oh_man 3y ago

Havoc 3y ago

Wait until he hears about banks and the cursed things they build on top of excel

ideamotor 3y ago
modern day horror show

nunez 3y ago

At least they weren't using Access.

bonki 3y ago
I've been wondering for 25 years if there has ever been a legitimate use case for this abomination.
- defrost 3y ago
  Trojan gift horse for undermining the competition .. once they're hip deep and headed deeper into Access dependancy you're free to play the field without concern of them catching up.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Optimal_Persona 3y ago
  In 20 years I've encountered precisely one Access Database that was very well designed, adequately documented, and implemented correctly - meaning people used a single instance on a specific machine, or Remote Desktop Protocol'd into same. Connecting to an Access database over a network from individual client apps is a recipe for pain as the database file gets locked, so then people start saving "copy of copy of copy USE THIS ONE" versions and you get divergent database backends with no clean way to merge. IME this always happens for business critical Access systems with no backup and documentation at the least convenient time, and suddenly it's IT's problem/fault. Yes you can connect to a SQL Server backend, but then it's IT's problem/fault/responsibility to maintain, and it takes Access out of the "simple enough for business users" domain. That said, as a rapid app development desktop tool Access can work very well if you know its limitations. It's somewhat surprising MS never made a 365 web-first equivalent, but that's probably because they'd rather charge for Dynamics 365 licenses and Azure SQL hosting.
Clubber 3y ago
Access is great for small companies if it's schema'd properly. The problem is when those small companies outgrow it; it's a complete rewrite. I believe you can point it to a MSSQL backend, but it's been a couple decades since I've used it. It's certainly a step up from Excel.

theGnuMe 3y ago

I thought Palantir was used now…

Woodi 3y ago

"Beyond Excel" ! The Cloud ! F1 - World where IT isn't allowed ! Just only MS IT... On the other hand Excel looks like quite stable piece of software - more then 1 milion of rows... (\s & ^\s)