8 ms·

First use of ammonia as marine fuel in a vessel

37 points by geox 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
RetroTechie 3y ago
Hmm.. hydrogen carrier, going into fuelcell & electric drive train? Nope! Just co-fired in combustion engine.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Ammonia can be produced using renewable energy and is a drop in replacement for diesel/bunker fuel.
  - amluto 3y ago
    Did you read the article? It’s not even close to a drop in fuel. The engines needed conversion. More important, ammonia is nasty. If you have an open container of diesel fuel, it’s messy if you spill it and quite bad for the environment if you spill a lot of it. If you have an open container of anhydrous ammonia in front of you, it will likely kill you.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      While ammonia is not without its challenges you mention, it’s already shipped as fertilizer today and is easier (relatively) to store than hydrogen at the quantities required for marine propulsion. This is why the industry has focused most of its effort on ammonia for cleaner energy. It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives (and where energy density and combustion are non negotiable; fuel cells are still not production ready for marine applications for tens of MW of output). https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-is-on-to-build-the-worlds-first-ammonia-powered-ship https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-... https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-maritime-fuel.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-mar...
      - _aavaa_ 3y ago
        > It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives. Ammonia is definitely not the least worst option. Both methanol and biodiesel as better than it, both price wise and because they are not highly toxic gasses. > As part of the safety protocols for the conduct of these tests, crew members also donned personal protection equipment such as chemical protection suits, nitrile chemical gloves, rubber boots, positive pressure mask and hood, and portable gas detectors for the relevant operations. I guess they'll have to wear that 24/7?
        toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. I agree that if either of these fuels can be produced below the cost of ammonia produced using renewable energy, using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally.
        _aavaa_ 3y ago
        > Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. This is true, but I don't get your point. We can argue about whether it's a good use of crops/farmland just as we can argue if electricity->H2 + N2 -> ammonia is a good use of electricity. > Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. The same can be said about Ammonia once you need to source your H2. > using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. That's a restriction that I don't see as justified. At least not for the biodiesel. > A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally. I agree. Further than that, we will stop shipping iron ore across the world to smelt it only to ship it back since the price of fuel will go up regardless of what we switch to. So shipping volume will decrease further.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    Gold can also be produces with renewable energy and some seawater. Doesn't mean it will make economic sense to do so.
angiosperm 3y ago
There is an implicit expectation that numerous tropical solar farms will produce anhydrous ammonia for export, both as fuel for shipping and to back up intermittent temperate sources, and for traditional uses in industry and agriculture. There is a chicken-and-egg problem for the ammonia economy.
- defrost 3y ago
  Don't forget the very real sidebar into the hundred billion per annum iron ore industry that's driving the use of ammonia as a fuel replacement for truck fleets, power generation and shipping transport. It's not so much an implicit expectation as a explicit forward plan by the same parties who are buying up cattle stations next to the mines they own | operate to generate power and ammonia for their own ends.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  What do you see as the chicken and egg problem? As you stated there are many current uses for Ammonia. The core problem is getting the price of green Ammonia lower than Ammonia production that vents the CO2, so that market mechanisms can kick in. The main solution is likely regulatory. Carbon (border) taxes on the alternative, incentives for green hydrogen production, ever increasing quotas for percentage of green Ammonia produced and consumed, corporations trying to hit decarbonisation goals etc.
iamthemonster 3y ago
Although I think this guy gets a lot wrong on safety, he has a fairly unique perspective on the economics and practicality of ammonia as marine fuel: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbarnard/2024/01/03/ammonia-is-a-great-fertilizer-but-would-be-a-terrible-shipping-fuel/?sh=178219bd185b https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbarnard/2024/01/03/ammon... China is already electrifying cargo transport on the Yangtse River, but I think true ammonia-fuelled cargo tankers are a way off.
defrost 3y ago
For a bigger picture look at who made the vessel and what they're planning for the future: https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2024/1287-dr-andrew-forrest-ao https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2024/1287-dr-andrew-forrest-a... This address to the National Press Club by Dr Andrew Forrest AO outlines how a strategic ‘power shift’ from a fossil fuel-dependent economy to a renewable energy-led economy promises to deliver one of the most profound and enduring economic growth opportunities ever seen, particularly in regional Australia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-9jFTWtGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-9jFTWtGs That's a doctorate in marine biology held by a multi billion mining magnate.
euroderf 3y ago
So how involved is it to set up household ammonia production using renewables ?
- LM358 3y ago
  It involves flammable and toxic gas at 200 bar pressure and 500 degrees C, so not something for the faint of heart. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
  - euroderf 3y ago
    Well, if there's no alternative... seems like a dealbreaker. Fer sher the wifey would not like something like that in the basement.
Daviey 3y ago
Ammonia smells like urine right? I wonder if the smell is fully contained and burns clean without odour.
- rich_sasha 3y ago
  Concentrated ammonia smells nothing like urine, it is a noxious, horrible, nose-irritating sensation. Quick googling reveals that ammonia smell in urine can actually be a symptom of something bad.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Cat urine has a strong ammonia odor. Concentrated ammonia is extremely toxic (deadly even), and flammable.
- jordanb 3y ago
  Ammonia has noxious fumes that burns the throat and eyes and is quite debilitating. If fumes leak the smell is the least of the worry.

37 points by geox 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

RetroTechie 3y ago

Hmm.. hydrogen carrier, going into fuelcell & electric drive train? Nope! Just co-fired in combustion engine.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Ammonia can be produced using renewable energy and is a drop in replacement for diesel/bunker fuel.
- amluto 3y ago
  Did you read the article? It’s not even close to a drop in fuel. The engines needed conversion. More important, ammonia is nasty. If you have an open container of diesel fuel, it’s messy if you spill it and quite bad for the environment if you spill a lot of it. If you have an open container of anhydrous ammonia in front of you, it will likely kill you.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    While ammonia is not without its challenges you mention, it’s already shipped as fertilizer today and is easier (relatively) to store than hydrogen at the quantities required for marine propulsion. This is why the industry has focused most of its effort on ammonia for cleaner energy. It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives (and where energy density and combustion are non negotiable; fuel cells are still not production ready for marine applications for tens of MW of output). https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-is-on-to-build-the-worlds-first-ammonia-powered-ship https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/sea-transport/the-race-... https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betting-big-on-ammonia https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-maritime-fuel.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/9-nh3-mar...
    - _aavaa_ 3y ago
      > It is not a great option, but a least worst option considering the alternatives. Ammonia is definitely not the least worst option. Both methanol and biodiesel as better than it, both price wise and because they are not highly toxic gasses. > As part of the safety protocols for the conduct of these tests, crew members also donned personal protection equipment such as chemical protection suits, nitrile chemical gloves, rubber boots, positive pressure mask and hood, and portable gas detectors for the relevant operations. I guess they'll have to wear that 24/7?
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. I agree that if either of these fuels can be produced below the cost of ammonia produced using renewable energy, using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally.
        _aavaa_ 3y ago
        > Biodiesel can't be produced at scale without crops and farmland. This is true, but I don't get your point. We can argue about whether it's a good use of crops/farmland just as we can argue if electricity->H2 + N2 -> ammonia is a good use of electricity. > Methanol can only be produced inexpensively using natural gas. The same can be said about Ammonia once you need to source your H2. > using renewable energy, they would be superior options for marine fuel. That's a restriction that I don't see as justified. At least not for the biodiesel. > A little under half of global marine traffic is moving energy around, which might be a contributing factor in fuel selection as traffic declines in the future due to renewables uptake globally. I agree. Further than that, we will stop shipping iron ore across the world to smelt it only to ship it back since the price of fuel will go up regardless of what we switch to. So shipping volume will decrease further.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  Gold can also be produces with renewable energy and some seawater. Doesn't mean it will make economic sense to do so.

angiosperm 3y ago

There is an implicit expectation that numerous tropical solar farms will produce anhydrous ammonia for export, both as fuel for shipping and to back up intermittent temperate sources, and for traditional uses in industry and agriculture. There is a chicken-and-egg problem for the ammonia economy.

defrost 3y ago
Don't forget the very real sidebar into the hundred billion per annum iron ore industry that's driving the use of ammonia as a fuel replacement for truck fleets, power generation and shipping transport. It's not so much an implicit expectation as a explicit forward plan by the same parties who are buying up cattle stations next to the mines they own | operate to generate power and ammonia for their own ends.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
What do you see as the chicken and egg problem? As you stated there are many current uses for Ammonia. The core problem is getting the price of green Ammonia lower than Ammonia production that vents the CO2, so that market mechanisms can kick in. The main solution is likely regulatory. Carbon (border) taxes on the alternative, incentives for green hydrogen production, ever increasing quotas for percentage of green Ammonia produced and consumed, corporations trying to hit decarbonisation goals etc.

iamthemonster 3y ago

Although I think this guy gets a lot wrong on safety, he has a fairly unique perspective on the economics and practicality of ammonia as marine fuel: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbarnard/2024/01/03/ammonia-is-a-great-fertilizer-but-would-be-a-terrible-shipping-fuel/?sh=178219bd185b https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbarnard/2024/01/03/ammon... China is already electrifying cargo transport on the Yangtse River, but I think true ammonia-fuelled cargo tankers are a way off.

defrost 3y ago

For a bigger picture look at who made the vessel and what they're planning for the future: https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2024/1287-dr-andrew-forrest-ao https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2024/1287-dr-andrew-forrest-a... This address to the National Press Club by Dr Andrew Forrest AO outlines how a strategic ‘power shift’ from a fossil fuel-dependent economy to a renewable energy-led economy promises to deliver one of the most profound and enduring economic growth opportunities ever seen, particularly in regional Australia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-9jFTWtGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-9jFTWtGs That's a doctorate in marine biology held by a multi billion mining magnate.

euroderf 3y ago

So how involved is it to set up household ammonia production using renewables ?

LM358 3y ago
It involves flammable and toxic gas at 200 bar pressure and 500 degrees C, so not something for the faint of heart. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
- euroderf 3y ago
  Well, if there's no alternative... seems like a dealbreaker. Fer sher the wifey would not like something like that in the basement.

Daviey 3y ago

Ammonia smells like urine right? I wonder if the smell is fully contained and burns clean without odour.

rich_sasha 3y ago
Concentrated ammonia smells nothing like urine, it is a noxious, horrible, nose-irritating sensation. Quick googling reveals that ammonia smell in urine can actually be a symptom of something bad.
- lazide 3y ago
  Cat urine has a strong ammonia odor. Concentrated ammonia is extremely toxic (deadly even), and flammable.
jordanb 3y ago
Ammonia has noxious fumes that burns the throat and eyes and is quite debilitating. If fumes leak the smell is the least of the worry.