6 ms·

So how should I interpret this? The map lacks geopolitical boundaries, so it's hard to interpret. There looks like a big hole of no data over Ukraine, where I'

by tivert 3y ago

So how should I interpret this? The map lacks geopolitical boundaries, so it's hard to interpret. There looks like a big hole of no data over Ukraine, where I'd most expect GPS jamming, but I suppose there are no civilian flights either. Maybe they could setup an GPS observation station on the ground at a surveyed point to get data there. There's a big red blob over Turkey, is that maybe the southern edge of the reach of Russian jammers in the Black sea? There's also a big red blob over the eastern Mediterranean. Is that Israel? I'm not so sure though, because it's not centered on Israel and parts of Israel proper are green on the map. I also assume they're heavy users of GPS, so wouldn't want to jam it. There's a red blob in Southeast Asia, and that looks like Myanmar, where there's a civil war right now. There's a little red blob over what looks like Kashmir.

seatac76 3y ago
I was curious too. Did some sleuthing, it looks more like Punjab. I think that’s to block drone infiltration from Pakistan [1]. It does change going back to 14th March there is no jamming in the region, US and Europe blobs also reduced, so I think this stuff is event driven, wonder what goes on, fascinating stuff. [1]https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/over-100-pakistani-drones-recovered-from-punjab-border-in-2023-bsf/article67695052.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/over-100...
- ramraj07 3y ago
  Or could it be related to the farmer protests?
muglug 3y ago
Their data comes from commercial flights. If there are no flights, there's no data. There aren't many commercial flights over Ukraine or Belarus right now, so that whole area's empty.
- mcculley 3y ago
  ADS-B is only commercial flights? I thought many kinds of flights are broadcasting. Does Flightradar24 only track commercial flights?
  - mcpherrinm 3y ago
    I doubt there’s any private flights over Ukraine too. Military planes generally don’t advertise their location in combat zones
    - rjsw 3y ago
      > Military planes generally don’t advertise their location in combat zones They might if they are from countries neutral to that conflict, like NATO flights over the Black Sea.
    - egorfine 3y ago
      No flights at all. About three or four civilian aircrafts were able to leave Ukraine during the war and every departure was a major military operation to undertake.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    It tracks private flights too. I'm only tangentially familiar (though I have an ADS-B receiver reporting to FR24), but my understanding is that it's not required for private flight now, but more and more aircraft are being retrofitted. Actually, it's more about airspace: https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/ads-b/where-is-ads-b-out-required https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/ads-b/whe... "The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225: Class A, B, and C airspace; Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl; Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil); Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet; Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast."
wongarsu 3y ago
The hole over Ukraine is definitely the lack of civilian flights. Another notable spot is Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave. It looks relatively normal on some days, like today, but on others like yesterday it's covered by solid red stretching far into Poland, Sweden and even Germany.
- tivert 3y ago
  > Another notable spot is Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave. It looks relatively normal on some days, like today, but on others like yesterday it's solid red. Oh yeah, I totally forgot that was a thing, and that explains that spur of red in the Baltic. I'd (probably incorrectly) assumed it was some kind of spillover from jamming in Ukraine. I didn't realize you could look at it over multiple days. One interesting thing about that blob is the outline of red seems to always be there, in the same shape, but the middle is often green. Maybe that's some artifact of their agreement algorithm? More overflights around the edges than through? It also looks like there's some jamming in Estonia? Or maybe that's just the edge of jamming around St Petersburg?
  - ardaoweo 3y ago
    Russians do plenty of jamming that expands beyond their borders in the Baltic, either on purpose or just as a spillover as they don't care. Before Finland joined NATO they used to also violate our airspace on frequent basis, but since then that has stopped. https://yle.fi/a/74-20079715 https://yle.fi/a/74-20079715
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      They violated NATO airspace a lot with their "Bear" nuclear-capable bombers until very recently. Not sure if it's still happening. It was so frequent that it didn't make the news every time.
      - jajko 3y ago
        The idea that russians are doing these things 'by accident' ain't even funny, just dangerously naive and nobody from intelligence community thinks so. They know damn well what they do and its well planned and even heroic in some childish fashion in their f*cked up mindset. They are at war with west (more Europe than US though) for solid 2 decades straight, just that they started to use military only in last decade, but were subverting public opinions in usual command & conquer strategy for much longer (riling western and former soviet populations against EU and Nato, supporting ultra-right groups, spreading false rumors ie on covid in us vs them psi-ops). Whatever politicians on their side say is meaningless or diversion and definitely just wasted time, just look at actions alone.
whalesalad 3y ago
hole = no measurement
nolongerthere 3y ago
Yea, oddly, if you go back to like august, there's still a bunch of red over the Mediterranean, parts of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. so it's not totally clear what that is. I've heard anecdotally that gps has gotten unusable in Israel in recent weeks but it's not clear why that's changed based on the mapping information we're seeing here.
- underdeserver 3y ago
  Northern Israel is completely jammed. There's talk of Israelis getting matched on Tinder with women from Beirut.
  - rafram 3y ago
    That’s because Beirut is 60 miles from northern Israel and Tinder’s max is 100 miles IIRC. These are small countries we’re talking about here. Phones don’t use GPS these days if they can help it - WiFi triangulation is significantly faster and uses much less battery - so GPS jamming wouldn’t have anything to do with Tinder matches.
    - underdeserver 3y ago
      This didn't happen before the war started.
      - hermitdev 3y ago
        Probably some new-age hippies at Tinder taking the 'make love, not war' manta to heart. /s
javier_e06 3y ago
I see 2 red cells on the US/Mexico border right about Texas/Coahuila region. Navigating that dessert region without GPS or with GPS for that matter can be deadly.
- bradgessler 3y ago
  That's the most curious jamming I see on the map—anybody know why jamming is present there? Is there a military base in that region?
  - just_steve_h 3y ago
    U.S. military has some Very Secret Stuff happening in certain desert areas.
  - frakt0x90 3y ago
    Laughlin air force base is there.
  - ikjasdlk2234 3y ago
    Probably because it's pilot training bases and the maneuvers they perform tend to throw off the ADS-B due to signal issues. https://www.gpsworld.com/one-gps-mystery-solved-another-remains/ https://www.gpsworld.com/one-gps-mystery-solved-another-rema...
- analyte123 3y ago
  Organized crime in Mexico would probably do it to prevent other people from using migration routes they control and reduce police efficacy. Of course, slightly rogue Mexican police or even US vigilantes also have an incentive.
- frakt0x90 3y ago
  If you line it up with that big lake, you can see there's an Air Force base right nearby https://www.google.com/maps/@29.3385589,-100.8055747,12.72z?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/@29.3385589,-100.8055747,12.72z?...
unsigner 3y ago
The Eastern Mediterranean might be the (significant, underreported, under-remembered) Russian military presence in Syria. They have airbases, a naval base, they rotate and train their officers there, they constantly ship military equipment back and forth from the Black Sea ports via the Bosphorus to Syria, they train the Syrian army, they build human shield observation posts overlooking Israel. What's unfathomable to me is how Israel (or Netanyahu?) keeps treating them as a frenemy.
- jjwiseman 3y ago
  I think there are probably many parties contributing to the interference in the Eastern Mediterrarnean. Russia and Israel are two of the big ones right now (and both have admitted doing it). See this report by C4ADS from 2019, about Russian jamming: https://c4ads.org/reports/above-us-only-stars/ https://c4ads.org/reports/above-us-only-stars/ Map of Israeli GPS spoofing (which is distinct from jamming, and we haven't talked much about in this discussion): https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1717987479255720076 https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1717987479255720076
randomcarbloke 3y ago
I want to know more about the White Sea Canal/Lake Onega patch and the spot in West Papua
- bluerooibos 3y ago
  The Papua one is weird. Looks completely remote. Something odd going on there.
  - nerdbert 3y ago
    Covered at length here: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57094295-termination-shock https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57094295-termination-sho...

by tivert 3y ago

seatac76 3y ago

I was curious too. Did some sleuthing, it looks more like Punjab. I think that’s to block drone infiltration from Pakistan [1]. It does change going back to 14th March there is no jamming in the region, US and Europe blobs also reduced, so I think this stuff is event driven, wonder what goes on, fascinating stuff. [1]https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/over-100-pakistani-drones-recovered-from-punjab-border-in-2023-bsf/article67695052.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/over-100...

ramraj07 3y ago
Or could it be related to the farmer protests?

muglug 3y ago

Their data comes from commercial flights. If there are no flights, there's no data. There aren't many commercial flights over Ukraine or Belarus right now, so that whole area's empty.

mcculley 3y ago
ADS-B is only commercial flights? I thought many kinds of flights are broadcasting. Does Flightradar24 only track commercial flights?
- mcpherrinm 3y ago
  I doubt there’s any private flights over Ukraine too. Military planes generally don’t advertise their location in combat zones
  - rjsw 3y ago
    > Military planes generally don’t advertise their location in combat zones They might if they are from countries neutral to that conflict, like NATO flights over the Black Sea.
  - egorfine 3y ago
    No flights at all. About three or four civilian aircrafts were able to leave Ukraine during the war and every departure was a major military operation to undertake.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  It tracks private flights too. I'm only tangentially familiar (though I have an ADS-B receiver reporting to FR24), but my understanding is that it's not required for private flight now, but more and more aircraft are being retrofitted. Actually, it's more about airspace: https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/ads-b/where-is-ads-b-out-required https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/ads-b/whe... "The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225: Class A, B, and C airspace; Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl; Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil); Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet; Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast."

wongarsu 3y ago

The hole over Ukraine is definitely the lack of civilian flights. Another notable spot is Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave. It looks relatively normal on some days, like today, but on others like yesterday it's covered by solid red stretching far into Poland, Sweden and even Germany.

tivert 3y ago
> Another notable spot is Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave. It looks relatively normal on some days, like today, but on others like yesterday it's solid red. Oh yeah, I totally forgot that was a thing, and that explains that spur of red in the Baltic. I'd (probably incorrectly) assumed it was some kind of spillover from jamming in Ukraine. I didn't realize you could look at it over multiple days. One interesting thing about that blob is the outline of red seems to always be there, in the same shape, but the middle is often green. Maybe that's some artifact of their agreement algorithm? More overflights around the edges than through? It also looks like there's some jamming in Estonia? Or maybe that's just the edge of jamming around St Petersburg?
- ardaoweo 3y ago
  Russians do plenty of jamming that expands beyond their borders in the Baltic, either on purpose or just as a spillover as they don't care. Before Finland joined NATO they used to also violate our airspace on frequent basis, but since then that has stopped. https://yle.fi/a/74-20079715 https://yle.fi/a/74-20079715
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    They violated NATO airspace a lot with their "Bear" nuclear-capable bombers until very recently. Not sure if it's still happening. It was so frequent that it didn't make the news every time.
    - jajko 3y ago
      The idea that russians are doing these things 'by accident' ain't even funny, just dangerously naive and nobody from intelligence community thinks so. They know damn well what they do and its well planned and even heroic in some childish fashion in their f*cked up mindset. They are at war with west (more Europe than US though) for solid 2 decades straight, just that they started to use military only in last decade, but were subverting public opinions in usual command & conquer strategy for much longer (riling western and former soviet populations against EU and Nato, supporting ultra-right groups, spreading false rumors ie on covid in us vs them psi-ops). Whatever politicians on their side say is meaningless or diversion and definitely just wasted time, just look at actions alone.

whalesalad 3y ago

hole = no measurement

nolongerthere 3y ago

Yea, oddly, if you go back to like august, there's still a bunch of red over the Mediterranean, parts of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. so it's not totally clear what that is. I've heard anecdotally that gps has gotten unusable in Israel in recent weeks but it's not clear why that's changed based on the mapping information we're seeing here.

underdeserver 3y ago
Northern Israel is completely jammed. There's talk of Israelis getting matched on Tinder with women from Beirut.
- rafram 3y ago
  That’s because Beirut is 60 miles from northern Israel and Tinder’s max is 100 miles IIRC. These are small countries we’re talking about here. Phones don’t use GPS these days if they can help it - WiFi triangulation is significantly faster and uses much less battery - so GPS jamming wouldn’t have anything to do with Tinder matches.
  - underdeserver 3y ago
    This didn't happen before the war started.
    - hermitdev 3y ago
      Probably some new-age hippies at Tinder taking the 'make love, not war' manta to heart. /s

javier_e06 3y ago

I see 2 red cells on the US/Mexico border right about Texas/Coahuila region. Navigating that dessert region without GPS or with GPS for that matter can be deadly.

bradgessler 3y ago
That's the most curious jamming I see on the map—anybody know why jamming is present there? Is there a military base in that region?
- just_steve_h 3y ago
  U.S. military has some Very Secret Stuff happening in certain desert areas.
- frakt0x90 3y ago
  Laughlin air force base is there.
- ikjasdlk2234 3y ago
  Probably because it's pilot training bases and the maneuvers they perform tend to throw off the ADS-B due to signal issues. https://www.gpsworld.com/one-gps-mystery-solved-another-remains/ https://www.gpsworld.com/one-gps-mystery-solved-another-rema...
analyte123 3y ago
Organized crime in Mexico would probably do it to prevent other people from using migration routes they control and reduce police efficacy. Of course, slightly rogue Mexican police or even US vigilantes also have an incentive.
frakt0x90 3y ago
If you line it up with that big lake, you can see there's an Air Force base right nearby https://www.google.com/maps/@29.3385589,-100.8055747,12.72z?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/@29.3385589,-100.8055747,12.72z?...

unsigner 3y ago

The Eastern Mediterranean might be the (significant, underreported, under-remembered) Russian military presence in Syria. They have airbases, a naval base, they rotate and train their officers there, they constantly ship military equipment back and forth from the Black Sea ports via the Bosphorus to Syria, they train the Syrian army, they build human shield observation posts overlooking Israel. What's unfathomable to me is how Israel (or Netanyahu?) keeps treating them as a frenemy.

jjwiseman 3y ago
I think there are probably many parties contributing to the interference in the Eastern Mediterrarnean. Russia and Israel are two of the big ones right now (and both have admitted doing it). See this report by C4ADS from 2019, about Russian jamming: https://c4ads.org/reports/above-us-only-stars/ https://c4ads.org/reports/above-us-only-stars/ Map of Israeli GPS spoofing (which is distinct from jamming, and we haven't talked much about in this discussion): https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1717987479255720076 https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1717987479255720076

randomcarbloke 3y ago

I want to know more about the White Sea Canal/Lake Onega patch and the spot in West Papua

bluerooibos 3y ago
The Papua one is weird. Looks completely remote. Something odd going on there.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  Covered at length here: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57094295-termination-shock https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57094295-termination-sho...