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I imagine we’d have that skilled workforce if companies paid enough. I’m a former construction contractor who reinvented myself as a software developer. Each

I imagine we’d have that skilled workforce if companies paid enough. I’m a former construction contractor who reinvented myself as a software developer. Each time I run into one of my former peers in the construction industry I hear the same complaints from them. “We can’t hire any good help.” Yet they are still paying the same non living wages that they have for 30 years.

sfilmeyer 3y ago
I don't think that dynamic is the same in construction and in semiconductor manufacturing. Certain parts of the chip-building supply chain just plain don't exist in the USA, and so no one in the USA currently has those skills. It's not like there are lots of folks with the skills in the USA but they're all leaving the industry for higher paying jobs.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  The reason there are not a lot of folks with the skills in the USA is because 30 years ago, the US labor market did not appropriately reward those parts of the chip building supply chain. Same dynamic as not paying construction workers enough, just with a greater time lag.
  - sfilmeyer 3y ago
    I think the distinction is still important, in that the time lag is large enough to have changed the current dynamics, even if they still match on longer timescales. Raising salaries a bit could stem the outflow of construction workers, and raising salaries sufficiently could bring folks like the prior commenter back into the industry. But as more time passes this gets less and less effective, because there's no one left in the industry to retain and no one with recent enough knowledge to pull back in.
- javajosh 3y ago
  What skills are they, specifically? I'd like to see companies like Intel make a resource describing them, at least, and at most, offer to pay training costs and offer a job at the end of it.
icyfox 3y ago
To be clear, I'm not saying we can't have this skilled workforce. Merely that we don't have it today. So the pipeline to employ Americans for these jobs is going to require increasing the funnel of people who learn the skills, become junior engineers, learn more on the job, then become senior engineers. That's a long pipeline to beef up the numbers.
- spaniard89277 3y ago
  I'm waiting for those job postings of "Junior Engineer with 5 years of experience minimum" in companies with zero pipeline of in-house training.
asabjorn 3y ago
[flagged]
- upheaval7276 3y ago
  You’re likely being downvoted for posting an opinion piece with zero supporting evidence.
  - asabjorn 3y ago
    Then the right response is, e.g. “Do you have any evidence that the CHIPS act require DEI?” Yes, see the relevant sections here: https://x.com/bonchieredstate/status/1766467529151557788?s=46 https://x.com/bonchieredstate/status/1766467529151557788?s=4... “Do you have any evidence that DEI distributes outcomes to favored activist identities?” A summary: https://youtu.be/n0fpeiFNWMY?si=eiCnRL0LX8RhOlxI https://youtu.be/n0fpeiFNWMY?si=eiCnRL0LX8RhOlxI Happy to provide evidence from woke literature if you are interested in evidence of any aspect of how it works. They are pretty straightforward about it, but incredibly wordy.
    - Workaccount2 3y ago
      You could just link to the relevant sections of the bill.
    - xenadu02 3y ago
      Those are extremely biased, to put it mildly. Also random YouTube videos are not scientific evidence. DEI has become a new conservative talking point but so far I haven't seen any evidence that such programs do anything to restrict hiring "white and Asian male[s]" as you put it. I've noticed some people complaining about what they imagine DEI means which is just the same old "affirmative action" complaints recycled. I'm not saying there are not some cases of DEI-induced discrimination - the world is wide after all - but that isn't what DEI policies/programs say in their text or how they're intended to work. I have never seen anyone saying we should lower standards to meet some kind of "quota". Again I want to point out that the numerous conservative attacks on affirmative action constantly claimed it was a quota system despite that being a flat-out lie. That makes me skeptical about this current round of conservatives blaming everything from the airline pilot shortage to fab personnel issues on "DEI".
autoexecbat 3y ago
The type of work does matter. If I had the choice between a low-pay office job and a low-pay physical labor job, many would pick the office.
- bluGill 3y ago
  That depends. When I was young and the weather was nice the physical labor job sounded really nice. However physical labor also means when it is -1C and raining, or 40C with no clouds. Now that I'm older my body isn't willing to do that and the office job is a lot nicer (but my doctor keeps telling me to stay active)
- plantwallshoe 3y ago
  You, sure. Half the dudes in my high school class couldn’t manage to write a coherent 5 paragraph essay, so low pay office work is not really an option for them.
bumby 3y ago
Not saying this with snark, but how many of those former peers work for companies with a clear pipeline to train people? Usually when I hear complaints like "We can't hire or keep good help" it's correlated with a company who isn't willing to invest in developing their workforce.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Not sure where in construction he was, but I've worked framing crews before, and the boss would hire anybody (not disabled) who said they were willing to work hard. It isn't hard to teach someone the basic tasks and most people could catch on in just an hour. Most people though realized it was physically hard work and quit in a week (even though this should be obvious). Plumbers and electricians have a good start from nothing apprentice program. They are sometimes hard to get into, but I know a few people who have gotten in over the years.
  - bumby 3y ago
    If you are training people and they aren’t staying, isn’t the implication that you aren’t paying them enough? Those union apprenticeships are often hard to come by because 1) they pay quite well compared to other viable options and 2) people don't want to leave because of #1. If the job is demanding, the pay should be commensurate. The exception is if it’s rewarding on some other axis (e.g., socially).
specialist 3y ago
Yes and: Record corporate profits while wages stagnated. Coincidence? Is American labor really more expensive? Really? Or do American workers simply have the unforgivable expectation of some kind of profit sharing? (Yes, yes, yes. CoL in the economically important parts of America is higher. Again, the root cause being windfall profits for the elite.)
s3p 3y ago
Intel pays its employees very well. They also have generous vacation allotments, and paid sabbaticals every 4 years.
- s3p 3y ago
  For the record I am not an Intel rep lol this is just based on my opinion & expedrience
pondemic 3y ago
Hope you’ll excuse the somewhat off-topic nature of my comment: I’d be curious in hearing your story how you transitioned into software development from construction - would you mind passing along contact information or reaching out to me? I’m in a similar boat and thinking long and hard about my options!

sfilmeyer 3y ago

I don't think that dynamic is the same in construction and in semiconductor manufacturing. Certain parts of the chip-building supply chain just plain don't exist in the USA, and so no one in the USA currently has those skills. It's not like there are lots of folks with the skills in the USA but they're all leaving the industry for higher paying jobs.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
The reason there are not a lot of folks with the skills in the USA is because 30 years ago, the US labor market did not appropriately reward those parts of the chip building supply chain. Same dynamic as not paying construction workers enough, just with a greater time lag.
- sfilmeyer 3y ago
  I think the distinction is still important, in that the time lag is large enough to have changed the current dynamics, even if they still match on longer timescales. Raising salaries a bit could stem the outflow of construction workers, and raising salaries sufficiently could bring folks like the prior commenter back into the industry. But as more time passes this gets less and less effective, because there's no one left in the industry to retain and no one with recent enough knowledge to pull back in.
javajosh 3y ago
What skills are they, specifically? I'd like to see companies like Intel make a resource describing them, at least, and at most, offer to pay training costs and offer a job at the end of it.

icyfox 3y ago

To be clear, I'm not saying we can't have this skilled workforce. Merely that we don't have it today. So the pipeline to employ Americans for these jobs is going to require increasing the funnel of people who learn the skills, become junior engineers, learn more on the job, then become senior engineers. That's a long pipeline to beef up the numbers.

spaniard89277 3y ago
I'm waiting for those job postings of "Junior Engineer with 5 years of experience minimum" in companies with zero pipeline of in-house training.

asabjorn 3y ago

[flagged]

upheaval7276 3y ago
You’re likely being downvoted for posting an opinion piece with zero supporting evidence.
- asabjorn 3y ago
  Then the right response is, e.g. “Do you have any evidence that the CHIPS act require DEI?” Yes, see the relevant sections here: https://x.com/bonchieredstate/status/1766467529151557788?s=46 https://x.com/bonchieredstate/status/1766467529151557788?s=4... “Do you have any evidence that DEI distributes outcomes to favored activist identities?” A summary: https://youtu.be/n0fpeiFNWMY?si=eiCnRL0LX8RhOlxI https://youtu.be/n0fpeiFNWMY?si=eiCnRL0LX8RhOlxI Happy to provide evidence from woke literature if you are interested in evidence of any aspect of how it works. They are pretty straightforward about it, but incredibly wordy.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    You could just link to the relevant sections of the bill.
  - xenadu02 3y ago
    Those are extremely biased, to put it mildly. Also random YouTube videos are not scientific evidence. DEI has become a new conservative talking point but so far I haven't seen any evidence that such programs do anything to restrict hiring "white and Asian male[s]" as you put it. I've noticed some people complaining about what they imagine DEI means which is just the same old "affirmative action" complaints recycled. I'm not saying there are not some cases of DEI-induced discrimination - the world is wide after all - but that isn't what DEI policies/programs say in their text or how they're intended to work. I have never seen anyone saying we should lower standards to meet some kind of "quota". Again I want to point out that the numerous conservative attacks on affirmative action constantly claimed it was a quota system despite that being a flat-out lie. That makes me skeptical about this current round of conservatives blaming everything from the airline pilot shortage to fab personnel issues on "DEI".

autoexecbat 3y ago

The type of work does matter. If I had the choice between a low-pay office job and a low-pay physical labor job, many would pick the office.

bluGill 3y ago
That depends. When I was young and the weather was nice the physical labor job sounded really nice. However physical labor also means when it is -1C and raining, or 40C with no clouds. Now that I'm older my body isn't willing to do that and the office job is a lot nicer (but my doctor keeps telling me to stay active)
plantwallshoe 3y ago
You, sure. Half the dudes in my high school class couldn’t manage to write a coherent 5 paragraph essay, so low pay office work is not really an option for them.

bumby 3y ago

Not saying this with snark, but how many of those former peers work for companies with a clear pipeline to train people? Usually when I hear complaints like "We can't hire or keep good help" it's correlated with a company who isn't willing to invest in developing their workforce.

bluGill 3y ago
Not sure where in construction he was, but I've worked framing crews before, and the boss would hire anybody (not disabled) who said they were willing to work hard. It isn't hard to teach someone the basic tasks and most people could catch on in just an hour. Most people though realized it was physically hard work and quit in a week (even though this should be obvious). Plumbers and electricians have a good start from nothing apprentice program. They are sometimes hard to get into, but I know a few people who have gotten in over the years.
- bumby 3y ago
  If you are training people and they aren’t staying, isn’t the implication that you aren’t paying them enough? Those union apprenticeships are often hard to come by because 1) they pay quite well compared to other viable options and 2) people don't want to leave because of #1. If the job is demanding, the pay should be commensurate. The exception is if it’s rewarding on some other axis (e.g., socially).

specialist 3y ago

Yes and: Record corporate profits while wages stagnated. Coincidence? Is American labor really more expensive? Really? Or do American workers simply have the unforgivable expectation of some kind of profit sharing? (Yes, yes, yes. CoL in the economically important parts of America is higher. Again, the root cause being windfall profits for the elite.)

s3p 3y ago

Intel pays its employees very well. They also have generous vacation allotments, and paid sabbaticals every 4 years.

s3p 3y ago
For the record I am not an Intel rep lol this is just based on my opinion & expedrience

pondemic 3y ago

Hope you’ll excuse the somewhat off-topic nature of my comment: I’d be curious in hearing your story how you transitioned into software development from construction - would you mind passing along contact information or reaching out to me? I’m in a similar boat and thinking long and hard about my options!