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Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange
- gadilif 3y agoThis is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (there is, obviously, a large minority of arabs, both muslims and christians, living in Israel. Yes, as first class citizens - I'm not talking about the occupied territories, but Israel within the 1967 lines).
- myth_drannon 3y ago[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 3y agoMore like, get a history book, please. Different things happened in different places, but your summary's not very accurate. (There weren't any Christian countries thousands of years ago, with Armenia converting about 1715-ish years ago, so I'm not sure how anyone – Jewish or otherwise – could've lived in them.)
- wslh 3y agoCould you please expand what is wrong with the comments upper in the thread? I see the expression I think you referenced logically right: Jews lived for thousand years even if there were other religions there, Pagans (not Christians) included. That is any other faiths.
- wizzwizz4 3y agoThe first one's fine: no objections there. The second comment is just misleading in so many ways it's hard to pick one. Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate (Jews weren't considered pagans) and overly-simplistic (state religions aren't a solid, fixed thing, especially over large areas before modern communication). While the Arab conquests were significant, not every Muslim country was converted "by the sword": there's even debate over whether the Muslim citizens of the early caliphates were, since such a small group, while large enough to conquer, would surely find it tricky to police the day-to-day behaviour and practices of so many people. (The Mongol Empire didn't manage to eliminate the practice of Islam in the areas under its control, despite ritual washing being punishable by summary execution, so it's plausible that Islam is just that persuasive.)
- pgeorgi 3y ago> Dividing the world into "Pagan countries" and "Christian countries" is both inaccurate That's not what the post said. Just that, before Islam was even a thing, those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries" were broadly "pagan" and/or "christian", depending on time and location. As for your assertion of no christian countries thousands of years ago, where you state yourself "Armenia converting about 1715-ish years ago": That's thousands of years (as in: more than 1000)
- wizzwizz4 3y ago> those countries that Jews lived in which these days are considered "Muslim countries" Is irrelevant, since we're talking about the 11th century. (I can't find a good 11th-century map to point at, but the article describes enough to give the impression of how different it was back then.)
- pgeorgi 3y agoThree posts above the goal post stood at "inaccurate" and "overly-simplistic," now we're at irrelevant. Okay.
- throwaway290 3y agoMany of those places were Christian or Zoroastrian or whatnot way before early Muslim conquests, look it up. And Jews lived there since before year 0
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- myth_drannon 3y agoright, there was no country called Iraq until recently. What I meant was not a political entity but a region where the modern state of Iraq resides, so you can call it Assyria/Babylon/Roman Empire/Greek Empire/British Mandate. Same for Iran, with countless empires but the region is the same.
- lots2learn 3y agoI don't think you understand the word colonizer. The Muslims conquered and lived among the people. They created a civilization which non-Muslim minorities were a part of. This is very different from European colonialism that extracted resources from the lands and people they conquered for the exclusive benefit of the Empire.
- mutatio 3y agoThey were colonizers and practiced genocide. It's a great source of pride that Jews were banished from the Arab peninsula (or forcefully converted). Other branches of Islamic history such as the Ottomams were also colonisers. Don't forget Muhammad himself was a warlord.
- selimthegrim 3y agoIf they were banished from the Arabian peninsula, what were they doing in Yemen in 1948?
- TacticalCoder 3y ago[flagged]
- g8oz 3y ago>>way, way, way before europeans started trading slaves. You might want to look into the Roman slave trade.
- SomeDaysBe 3y ago> Muslims in europe had white people (and black people too) as slaves, way, way, way before europeans started trading slaves Rome? Greece? What are you even talking about? > FWIW slavery is still ongoing, today, in some muslim countries Also in the USA [1] and EU [2]. Spare us the "europeans are peaceful / muslims evil" angle please. [1] https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-states/ https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studie... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2023-001305_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2023-00130...
- teejays 3y ago[flagged]
- wslh 3y agoI think another way to see it is that Zionism is the perfect excuse for struggle. There are 16m of Jews in a world of 8b people. And, the world was silent while half of the Jewish population was been literally exterminated. Even US was closed to Jews refugees.
- nolongerthere 3y ago[flagged]
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- user982 3y agoThis was Jerusalem in 1896: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0
- ars 3y agoWhen Zionism started "peaceful coexistence" was long since gone. You are combining time periods over hundreds of years. Peaceful coexistence ended around 860 (and stated getting worse in 636 with the Siege of Jerusalem), while modern Zionism didn't start till 1840's - around 1,000 years later. Possibly prompted by the Arab massacres in 1834: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed People sometimes talk about how Israel was mostly inhabited by Arabs before Israel was founded, but they neglect to inform that this was because of the numerous massacres against Jews who had been living there for thousands of years.
- selimthegrim 3y agoWhat happened in 636, who was expelled?
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- hdlothia 3y agoDuring the rule of al-Mutawakkil, the tenth Abbasid Caliph, numerous restrictions reinforced the second-class citizen status of dhimmīs and forced their communities into ghettos.[15] For instance, they were required to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors by their dress.[16] They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues or repair old churches according to the Pact of Umar. Is this an accurate portrayal of the good relations you describe or an exception? It's hard to find unbiased accounts of what Jewish-Islamic relations were like pre-israel, especially since both sides have an agenda to push.
- g8oz 3y agoAnd yet this hardly compares to what happened in Europe during the medieval period.
- hdlothia 3y agoIt seems like neither the Christian world or the Islamic world have been safe havens for Jewish people.
- someotherperson 3y agoThere are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0]. The idea that it was enforced is even more dubious. The decrees were racist, sure, but unlike his more insane personalized antics (like when he ordered a holy Zoroastrian tree be cut down and shipped to him so he can build his house out of it[1]) the vast majority of the Islamic world didn't agree or support any of it and it was unlikely that any of it was actually enforced. He had little support outside of the Turkic world and a North African militia group, and even that was far and few inbetween. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homs_revolts_(854%E2%80%93855) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homs_revolts_(854%E2%80%93855) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypress_of_Kashmar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypress_of_Kashmar
- msteffen 3y agoI do think that your comment almost understates the relationship: in 1917, an incredible 40% of Baghdad's population was Jewish. The nature of historical Jewish-Islamic relations is obviously a matter of great political contention (especially now). It varied depending on the politics of the time and place—sometimes rich and peaceful (and indeed better than Europe) and sometimes tragic and violent—but for anyone casually curious, there is a dedicated Wikipedia article that I think is pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl...
- resolutebat 3y agoDescribing Arabs in Israel as first-class citizens is a bit starry-eyed, although they're certainly better off than their second-class non-citizen cousins across the Green Line though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Racism_against_Arab_citizens_by_Israeli_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Racism_agains...
- farseer 3y agoThe fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...
- bawolff 3y agoThe source you link to seems to indicate that this is not an accepted historical fact but very much disputed who precisely did what.
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- mcmoor 3y agoAnd I thought that enforcement is a direct retribution because of a certain nation being created in 1948. The relation certainly plunges downhill after that.
- DoItToMe81 3y agoI've known Israelis and Arab Israelis. I would NOT call them 'first class citizens', there is discrimination codified into law and most state entities.
- bushbaba 3y agoJewish Arab relations historically were ok, not something I’d call “very good”. Some paces better than others, some times better than others. Generally though Jews were still second class citizens in Arab nations. Here’s a wiki article that captures some the past issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world
- wslh 3y agoProbably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.
- hersko 3y agoFrom what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.
- myth_drannon 3y agoRight, while the Christian Europe was amidst a Dark Ages and was torturing and burning Jews and others, Islam was in its Golden Age period. Too bad it was short and Mongol hordes ended it, leaving a significant mark on the Islamic culture. Just realized we are witnessing at the moment two wars (there are more, but these two just get significant news coverage) by cultures who were scarred by Mongols - Russia and Islamic Empire
- gattilorenz 3y agoThe idea of "dark ages" is a myth (pun with the username intended), but if anything it applies to the early medieval age, which is exactly when anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe was... not very common, since persecution of Jews started later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_antisemitism
- cess11 3y agoYes. And zionism as a global political force is in large part, possibly mainly, funded and promoted by christian zionists, and not by jews. Comment above implies a dichotomy between arab and jew which is wildly ahistorical. To an extent the migration of jews to Israel from arab countries post-WWII was done by Israel, infamously the 'magic carpet' from Yemen for example. As an aside, the urge among zionists to claim that muslims are the worst, OG colonizers is probably related to zionism being an explicitly colonial project, as stated by pretty much every influential early zionist. Cecil Rhodes was begged to help out due to his experience in this area, and the intimate relation between apartheid South Africa and Israel was in part made possible due to this similarity.
- SomeDaysBe 3y ago[flagged]
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- seanhunter 3y agoSorry for the sidetrack, but that is such an incredibly beautiful object, with those delicate etched hyperbolae. So much skill and craft went into making it and you can see that it is a superbly-designed practical tool that was well-used. It's quite humbling to see things like that.