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>Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors. Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specificall

>Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors. Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires, to have an idea how quick and violent this can be, and how bad most of these containers are at preventing it from going from 0 to inferno or to a toxic cloud suffocating you in seconds. This might or might not help you plan for the worst case, or better yet forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all.

WalterBright 3y ago
> forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all. Yah, some things it's best to not learn the hard way. But if you're intent on doing it, to it outside on a concrete slab.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  P.S. I do anything that involves fumes or dust outside, such as painting, solvents, etc.
throwway120385 3y ago
What do people do in factories? I'm skeptical of the idea that some repairs are meant to be performed only by "experts" and that nobody should ever try to learn how to make them. It fuels an industry of people charging hundreds or thousands of dollars per repair to install cheap parts, and it's part of the reason our society throws so much stuff away. Sure lithium ion packs are dangerous, but there is a manufacturing process that: welds cells together to make banks, and that sometimes produces a runaway reaction inside the cells. Given that that's the case, it should be entirely possible to do that safely in a controlled environment inside of a garage. This is the same attitude that informs our decision not to repair garage door springs. Or more relevantly the same attitude that tells us to just use whatever async library du jour exists but never to learn about the internals of that library. "Don't worry about what's under the hood, that's dangerous stuff" says the dealer's mechanic.
- elliottkember 3y ago
  Do you perform your own dentistry?
  - linsomniac 3y ago
    Touche.
  - throwway120385 3y ago
    It's not the same thing because I don't have training to be a dentist, but I do have training and skills and knowledge for a variety of non-dentist mechanical, electrical, and electronic things. So this is a specious argument. Where does it end? Do I not do any work myself ever? Or are there things we can all agree some people are capable of doing? I think the gatekeeping around all of this stuff from people is frankly kind of ridiculous. It's not like the battery repairmen are doing asbestos abatement naked in their living rooms while their families are watching TV. But people are treating it like the same thing.
    - plussed_reader 3y ago
      Capability is fine but also goes hand in hand with risk. Working on lipo/li-ion cells is risky which is usually why such work is not zoned for residential areas. How would your skills and training translate into something a neighbor or inspector can understand? Would you resent them for questioning your non-dentist abilities? Is someone with no formal training but years of practical knowledge working on devices enough? It seems like the questions from my end bend back toward proving yourself when a situation breaks, not when it works, which is what sometimes happens when you do work yourself. Have you heard the parable of the nuclear boy scout, David Hahn?
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > I do have training and skills and knowledge for a variety of non-dentist mechanical, electrical, and electronic things. A fundamental of expertise is knowing the terrain, what you can and can't do safely and reliably. A fundamental of knowledge is becoming aware of far more that you don't know; only in ignorance do we imagine there is little outside our personal boundaries. Highly experienced professionals will tell me, 'I don't know how to do that, you should talk to ...', and will refuse to even venture advice. My doctor tells me to talk to a specialist. Naive, immature amatuers assure me they can do anything, and can diagnose and treat my medical condition via social media.
morphle 3y ago
I design big custom battery packs in car trailers or shipping containers for storing them outside of infrastructure. If the battery catches fire you can drag the trailer or shipping containers further away to let it burn out. Of course it gets harder to drag them away after a few minutes of fire when the axles and wheels start to melt. The point is to never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings, especially not put them inside heavy (metal) boxes bolted to the building.
- lproven 3y ago
  > The point is to never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings Missing word? Because I have dozens of 'em inside this building right now...
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  > never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings No EVs in garages or multi-storey car parks?
  - morphle 3y ago
    You will have to do some research to find out what the new laws in the making and fire department procedures say about garages and multi-story car parks in 2024. A quick review by me just now suggests the government regulations still have not yet caught up with the new reality in the US and EU: EV's and large batteries inside buildings are not yet forbidden but probably will be soon. Fire departments choose to evacuate a building with EV fires (and other industrial fires) and just let it burn out [2]. Fire departments only quench a fire by sudden rapid cooling if possible, for example by drowning [1] the entire Li-ion fire in a basin. Taking the oxygen away is not the goal. [1] https://www.ctif.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Putting%20out%20battery%20fires%20with%20water.pdf https://www.ctif.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Putting%20o... I design neighbourhood batteries as two shipping containers underground. In the bottom container the batteries with multiple infrared camera's looking at all battery sides and also with redundant temperature sensors. The top shipping container will deliver 60.000 liter of water into the bottom container in seconds. Testing such a setup would make for a hot and cool spectacular Mythbusters episode. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT1QTPEZoHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT1QTPEZoHY
DebtDeflation 3y ago
>Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires I watched a bunch of those videos on YouTube when I was in the market for one and ended up not buying any. The ones that were fully sealed just exploded and the ones that were vented shot 3 foot tall flames and showers of sparks out of the vents igniting everything on the ground around the container. Better to just charge the bike outside on pavement or concrete away from anything flammable.

WalterBright 3y ago

> forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all. Yah, some things it's best to not learn the hard way. But if you're intent on doing it, to it outside on a concrete slab.

WalterBright 3y ago
P.S. I do anything that involves fumes or dust outside, such as painting, solvents, etc.

throwway120385 3y ago

What do people do in factories? I'm skeptical of the idea that some repairs are meant to be performed only by "experts" and that nobody should ever try to learn how to make them. It fuels an industry of people charging hundreds or thousands of dollars per repair to install cheap parts, and it's part of the reason our society throws so much stuff away. Sure lithium ion packs are dangerous, but there is a manufacturing process that: welds cells together to make banks, and that sometimes produces a runaway reaction inside the cells. Given that that's the case, it should be entirely possible to do that safely in a controlled environment inside of a garage. This is the same attitude that informs our decision not to repair garage door springs. Or more relevantly the same attitude that tells us to just use whatever async library du jour exists but never to learn about the internals of that library. "Don't worry about what's under the hood, that's dangerous stuff" says the dealer's mechanic.

elliottkember 3y ago
Do you perform your own dentistry?
- linsomniac 3y ago
  Touche.
- throwway120385 3y ago
  It's not the same thing because I don't have training to be a dentist, but I do have training and skills and knowledge for a variety of non-dentist mechanical, electrical, and electronic things. So this is a specious argument. Where does it end? Do I not do any work myself ever? Or are there things we can all agree some people are capable of doing? I think the gatekeeping around all of this stuff from people is frankly kind of ridiculous. It's not like the battery repairmen are doing asbestos abatement naked in their living rooms while their families are watching TV. But people are treating it like the same thing.
  - plussed_reader 3y ago
    Capability is fine but also goes hand in hand with risk. Working on lipo/li-ion cells is risky which is usually why such work is not zoned for residential areas. How would your skills and training translate into something a neighbor or inspector can understand? Would you resent them for questioning your non-dentist abilities? Is someone with no formal training but years of practical knowledge working on devices enough? It seems like the questions from my end bend back toward proving yourself when a situation breaks, not when it works, which is what sometimes happens when you do work yourself. Have you heard the parable of the nuclear boy scout, David Hahn?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > I do have training and skills and knowledge for a variety of non-dentist mechanical, electrical, and electronic things. A fundamental of expertise is knowing the terrain, what you can and can't do safely and reliably. A fundamental of knowledge is becoming aware of far more that you don't know; only in ignorance do we imagine there is little outside our personal boundaries. Highly experienced professionals will tell me, 'I don't know how to do that, you should talk to ...', and will refuse to even venture advice. My doctor tells me to talk to a specialist. Naive, immature amatuers assure me they can do anything, and can diagnose and treat my medical condition via social media.

morphle 3y ago

I design big custom battery packs in car trailers or shipping containers for storing them outside of infrastructure. If the battery catches fire you can drag the trailer or shipping containers further away to let it burn out. Of course it gets harder to drag them away after a few minutes of fire when the axles and wheels start to melt. The point is to never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings, especially not put them inside heavy (metal) boxes bolted to the building.

lproven 3y ago
> The point is to never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings Missing word? Because I have dozens of 'em inside this building right now...
kwhitefoot 3y ago
> never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings No EVs in garages or multi-storey car parks?
- morphle 3y ago
  You will have to do some research to find out what the new laws in the making and fire department procedures say about garages and multi-story car parks in 2024. A quick review by me just now suggests the government regulations still have not yet caught up with the new reality in the US and EU: EV's and large batteries inside buildings are not yet forbidden but probably will be soon. Fire departments choose to evacuate a building with EV fires (and other industrial fires) and just let it burn out [2]. Fire departments only quench a fire by sudden rapid cooling if possible, for example by drowning [1] the entire Li-ion fire in a basin. Taking the oxygen away is not the goal. [1] https://www.ctif.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Putting%20out%20battery%20fires%20with%20water.pdf https://www.ctif.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Putting%20o... I design neighbourhood batteries as two shipping containers underground. In the bottom container the batteries with multiple infrared camera's looking at all battery sides and also with redundant temperature sensors. The top shipping container will deliver 60.000 liter of water into the bottom container in seconds. Testing such a setup would make for a hot and cool spectacular Mythbusters episode. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT1QTPEZoHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT1QTPEZoHY

DebtDeflation 3y ago

>Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires I watched a bunch of those videos on YouTube when I was in the market for one and ended up not buying any. The ones that were fully sealed just exploded and the ones that were vented shot 3 foot tall flames and showers of sparks out of the vents igniting everything on the ground around the container. Better to just charge the bike outside on pavement or concrete away from anything flammable.