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Note that while the article says "soldering" the pictures show "welding", which is the typical way you create battery packs. The reasons are that the welding p

Note that while the article says "soldering" the pictures show "welding", which is the typical way you create battery packs. The reasons are that the welding provides a higher temperature connection but for a shorter period of time, over all dumping less heat into the battery and potentially causing damage to the cell or triggering ignition. Also makes a higher temp connection, solder can melt when the joints get hot during use. I got a battery welder a few years ago to repair an ebike pack and also to repair a EGO power tool battery pack, but thus far haven't used it. The ebike pack was a bunch of "packets" rather than 18650 cells, and the EGO was slightly smaller than 18650, so I need to wait for another pack to fail so I can scavenge cells from one to repair the other. Be careful if it smells like birthday cake when you're working with lion cells, that can preclude them bursting into flames. Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors.

mhb 3y ago
preclude: I think you mean that can be a prelude to. Though could also be presage.
- linsomniac 3y ago
  I think I was going for "precedes".
  - mhb 3y ago
    Ah. That makes sense.
orbital-decay 3y ago
>Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors. Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires, to have an idea how quick and violent this can be, and how bad most of these containers are at preventing it from going from 0 to inferno or to a toxic cloud suffocating you in seconds. This might or might not help you plan for the worst case, or better yet forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all. Yah, some things it's best to not learn the hard way. But if you're intent on doing it, to it outside on a concrete slab.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    P.S. I do anything that involves fumes or dust outside, such as painting, solvents, etc.
- throwway120385 3y ago
  What do people do in factories? I'm skeptical of the idea that some repairs are meant to be performed only by "experts" and that nobody should ever try to learn how to make them. It fuels an industry of people charging hundreds or thousands of dollars per repair to install cheap parts, and it's part of the reason our society throws so much stuff away. Sure lithium ion packs are dangerous, but there is a manufacturing process that: welds cells together to make banks, and that sometimes produces a runaway reaction inside the cells. Given that that's the case, it should be entirely possible to do that safely in a controlled environment inside of a garage. This is the same attitude that informs our decision not to repair garage door springs. Or more relevantly the same attitude that tells us to just use whatever async library du jour exists but never to learn about the internals of that library. "Don't worry about what's under the hood, that's dangerous stuff" says the dealer's mechanic.
  - elliottkember 3y ago
    Do you perform your own dentistry?
    - linsomniac 3y ago
      Touche.
    - throwway120385 3y ago
      It's not the same thing because I don't have training to be a dentist, but I do have training and skills and knowledge for a variety of non-dentist mechanical, electrical, and electronic things. So this is a specious argument. Where does it end? Do I not do any work myself ever? Or are there things we can all agree some people are capable of doing? I think the gatekeeping around all of this stuff from people is frankly kind of ridiculous. It's not like the battery repairmen are doing asbestos abatement naked in their living rooms while their families are watching TV. But people are treating it like the same thing.
cesarb 3y ago
> Note that while the article says "soldering" the pictures show "welding", In some languages, these are the same word (this is the case at least for my native Portuguese), so this could just be a translation issue.
- zer00eyz 3y ago
  Wait what? Is there a distinction for Brazing? There isn't a distinction for the same metals vs different ones?
  - HarryHirsch 3y ago
    How about glueing? After all, two parts are held together by application of a different substance.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  They're also more or less synonymous in Chinese, resulting in a lot of weird phrases like "infrared welding" or "SMT welding practice kit".
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Interesting: How do you express the difference between soldering and welding?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Welding melts the metal to be joined, and joins it with a fillet of the same material. Soldering does not melt the parts to be joined, it just melts the solder, at a much lower temperature. Brazing is the midpoint of these: joining with dissimilar metal, without melting the parts to be joined, but at a relatively high temperature.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
yardie 3y ago
> Be careful if it smells like birthday cake when you're working with lion cells This is hilariously specific. I wasn't sure how to describe that sweet smell of li-ion packs immolating. Birthday cake seems to fit it perfectly.
- kazinator 3y ago
  Ah, Mom's good old lithium birthday cakes ...
opwieurposiu 3y ago
The birthday cake smell thing is right on, happened to me. I was transporting a hobby fighting robot and noticed the smell. When I took it out of the metal box I found a wire had broken and the 18650 battery was shorted.
analog31 3y ago
In addition to the heat issue, a lot of battery contacts don't form a good joint with typical electrical solder. Source: Tried to solder batteries.
justinclift 3y ago
Interesting. My father (retired engineer into these things) was talking about making a battery pack welder recently. Something about it using a directed microwave pulse to make the weld spot, so it doesn't dump a bunch of heat into the batteries and potentially cause a fire. The theory of it sounded ok to my layman ears. Hopefully he gets it up and working in the near future. :)

mhb 3y ago

preclude: I think you mean that can be a prelude to. Though could also be presage.

linsomniac 3y ago
I think I was going for "precedes".
- mhb 3y ago
  Ah. That makes sense.

orbital-decay 3y ago

>Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors. Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires, to have an idea how quick and violent this can be, and how bad most of these containers are at preventing it from going from 0 to inferno or to a toxic cloud suffocating you in seconds. This might or might not help you plan for the worst case, or better yet forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all.

WalterBright 3y ago
> forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all. Yah, some things it's best to not learn the hard way. But if you're intent on doing it, to it outside on a concrete slab.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  P.S. I do anything that involves fumes or dust outside, such as painting, solvents, etc.
throwway120385 3y ago
What do people do in factories? I'm skeptical of the idea that some repairs are meant to be performed only by "experts" and that nobody should ever try to learn how to make them. It fuels an industry of people charging hundreds or thousands of dollars per repair to install cheap parts, and it's part of the reason our society throws so much stuff away. Sure lithium ion packs are dangerous, but there is a manufacturing process that: welds cells together to make banks, and that sometimes produces a runaway reaction inside the cells. Given that that's the case, it should be entirely possible to do that safely in a controlled environment inside of a garage. This is the same attitude that informs our decision not to repair garage door springs. Or more relevantly the same attitude that tells us to just use whatever async library du jour exists but never to learn about the internals of that library. "Don't worry about what's under the hood, that's dangerous stuff" says the dealer's mechanic.
- elliottkember 3y ago
  Do you perform your own dentistry?
  - linsomniac 3y ago
    Touche.
  - throwway120385 3y ago
    It's not the same thing because I don't have training to be a dentist, but I do have training and skills and knowledge for a variety of non-dentist mechanical, electrical, and electronic things. So this is a specious argument. Where does it end? Do I not do any work myself ever? Or are there things we can all agree some people are capable of doing? I think the gatekeeping around all of this stuff from people is frankly kind of ridiculous. It's not like the battery repairmen are doing asbestos abatement naked in their living rooms while their families are watching TV. But people are treating it like the same thing.

cesarb 3y ago

> Note that while the article says "soldering" the pictures show "welding", In some languages, these are the same word (this is the case at least for my native Portuguese), so this could just be a translation issue.

zer00eyz 3y ago
Wait what? Is there a distinction for Brazing? There isn't a distinction for the same metals vs different ones?
- HarryHirsch 3y ago
  How about glueing? After all, two parts are held together by application of a different substance.
duskwuff 3y ago
They're also more or less synonymous in Chinese, resulting in a lot of weird phrases like "infrared welding" or "SMT welding practice kit".
wolverine876 3y ago
Interesting: How do you express the difference between soldering and welding?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 3y ago
  Welding melts the metal to be joined, and joins it with a fillet of the same material. Soldering does not melt the parts to be joined, it just melts the solder, at a much lower temperature. Brazing is the midpoint of these: joining with dissimilar metal, without melting the parts to be joined, but at a relatively high temperature.
  - wolverine876 3y ago

yardie 3y ago

> Be careful if it smells like birthday cake when you're working with lion cells This is hilariously specific. I wasn't sure how to describe that sweet smell of li-ion packs immolating. Birthday cake seems to fit it perfectly.

kazinator 3y ago
Ah, Mom's good old lithium birthday cakes ...

opwieurposiu 3y ago

The birthday cake smell thing is right on, happened to me. I was transporting a hobby fighting robot and noticed the smell. When I took it out of the metal box I found a wire had broken and the 18650 battery was shorted.

analog31 3y ago

In addition to the heat issue, a lot of battery contacts don't form a good joint with typical electrical solder. Source: Tried to solder batteries.

justinclift 3y ago

Interesting. My father (retired engineer into these things) was talking about making a battery pack welder recently. Something about it using a directed microwave pulse to make the weld spot, so it doesn't dump a bunch of heat into the batteries and potentially cause a fire. The theory of it sounded ok to my layman ears. Hopefully he gets it up and working in the near future. :)