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These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it

These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. I live in the Netherlands, a country usually lauded for it's bicycles and public transport and what not. And let me tell you: We still drive cars. All the time. Even in Amsterdam, our biggest city, 4/10 families still owns their personal car. In the Netherlands as a whole it's 9.5/10 or so. It's about THE MIX of options.

dijit 3y ago
yeah, it needs to be reframed as "car-dependency" because that's the major issue, everyone is forced into driving because there's no viable options. If every move you make requires a car, the traffic situation is always deleterious.
enaaem 3y ago
It’s important to emphasise that the additional transport options made driving BETTER.
pxtail 3y ago
> These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. Wholeheartedly agree, and what is also funny that usually it is described from POV of citizen living in: tier one city center with mild weather whole year round and relatively flat topography/terrain - and at the same time it's written in a way that suggest that it's THE SOLUTION absolutely applicable everywhere else.
- piva00 3y ago
  The solution applicable almost everywhere with some dozens of thousands of population is multimodal. Public transportation supported by infrastructure for cycling and cars relegated to their place in a multimodal system: inconvenient for shorter/regular trips, accessible for when it's needed. Stockholm doesn't have mild weather all year long, it's not flat, and still people will use public transportation or a bike. Oslo is definitely not flat, definitely not mild year round and even there people take public transportation, bike, etc.
  - pxtail 3y ago
    And again, as examples you provide two capital cities of two richest countries in the world - capital cities are rich, can easily afford building public infra and also population density is big enough to make public transportation almost profitable - but not everybody lives in a capital city. https://lovetransit.substack.com/p/most-profitable-public-transportation https://lovetransit.substack.com/p/most-profitable-public-tr...
    - piva00 3y ago
      Those are just examples of two cities I'm closely familiar. People also bike everywhere in China, many Chinese cities have decent public transportation (much better than almost any non-big city in the USA). Small cities in the Netherlands are able to afford bus lines, and provide infrastructure for bikes which are much cheaper than roads for autos. Good public transportation is a net contributor to a city, it provides residents with ways to be more economically active without costing them much. You don't need underground metro, not even trams in most cases, a simple and reliable bus transit system can provide a lot if it's not delayed by traffic. You don't need to be rich to have decent and reliable public transportation, Southeast Asia has quite good examples of that.
    - adrianN 3y ago
      Berlin is quite poor and it still has decent public transport and good walkability. Public transport is far from profitable in Berlin. It's entirely possible to raise a family without a having a car in Berlin.
- axpy 3y ago
  I think you are missing the point. Yes I am currently living in Europe and yes almost every family own a car.The difference is when, how frequently its used and also the fact that you have alternatives. These article are idealiziling a car-free lifestyle that is definitely not quite ubiquitous but it does exists. Also, your idealized weather and topo do exists in the US, think California (and I would argue the entire west coast) but the infra, urbanism and often the laws do not allowe safe alternatives to cars and this is the core of the problem. Your comment make it like the whole EU has Mediterranean climate or is flat as Amsterdam, which cannot be further from the reality.
mrcrumb1 3y ago
I think it's worth emphasizing just how low the bar is in the US for public transportation bike infrastructure, and walkability, even in many of the big cities.
sktrdie 3y ago
Where do you get this data from? I've been living in Amsterdam for 5 years now and all of my friends or people that I know of that live somewhat in the city don't have a car... because (1) they can't afford it and (2) they don't need it. Biking infra is so freaking amazing that it makes me want to bike all the time instead of getting the car (even if I had one). Driving around with a car in Amsterdam is just madness. I did it a few times for moving heavy stuff around and it's a mess because you're redirected across streets making it 5x longer to get to where you have to. I think your experience comes more from people living outside the dutch cities, in more rural areas? Then it makes sense to own a car. It doesn't make sense in a densely populated area. But anyway the Netherlands has really figured it out when it comes to public transport. No other place comes close in my experience. People who grew up here perhaps don't realize how lucky they area... and how shit it is in other places.
- TrueGeek 3y ago
  Per capita car ownership in The Netherlands is comparable to nearby countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_motor_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territor... Not taking a side, I agree with you that trying to use a car in any of the larger Dutch cities would be crazy. But car ownership has sadly been on the rise recently.
- ghusto 3y ago
  This is likely an age thing. I suspect you're without a family? I think what he's getting at is that we cycle everywhere, except when we can't, which matches my experience.
  - sktrdie 3y ago
    You're seriously driving around Amsterdam in a car? But why when a bicycle is 10x faster and easier?
    - ghusto 3y ago
      I generally don't drive anywhere that's under 15Km away, but there are exceptions. Taking the family to certain places just isn't feasible by bike sometimes.
ghusto 3y ago
Exactly this. Obviously I still need a car, but my day-to-day transport of choice is the bicycle. I will say this though: You people can't drive! I've seen more car accidents in my few years here than my entire _life_ in England!
earthling8118 3y ago
That's still a completely different reality than the US. Many people in my neighborhood have more than 1 vehicle per person. That's a far cry from less than half of families having a single car.

dijit 3y ago

yeah, it needs to be reframed as "car-dependency" because that's the major issue, everyone is forced into driving because there's no viable options. If every move you make requires a car, the traffic situation is always deleterious.

enaaem 3y ago

It’s important to emphasise that the additional transport options made driving BETTER.

pxtail 3y ago

> These (American) articles on urbanism and what not always make it seems much more insane than it is. Wholeheartedly agree, and what is also funny that usually it is described from POV of citizen living in: tier one city center with mild weather whole year round and relatively flat topography/terrain - and at the same time it's written in a way that suggest that it's THE SOLUTION absolutely applicable everywhere else.

piva00 3y ago
The solution applicable almost everywhere with some dozens of thousands of population is multimodal. Public transportation supported by infrastructure for cycling and cars relegated to their place in a multimodal system: inconvenient for shorter/regular trips, accessible for when it's needed. Stockholm doesn't have mild weather all year long, it's not flat, and still people will use public transportation or a bike. Oslo is definitely not flat, definitely not mild year round and even there people take public transportation, bike, etc.
- pxtail 3y ago
  And again, as examples you provide two capital cities of two richest countries in the world - capital cities are rich, can easily afford building public infra and also population density is big enough to make public transportation almost profitable - but not everybody lives in a capital city. https://lovetransit.substack.com/p/most-profitable-public-transportation https://lovetransit.substack.com/p/most-profitable-public-tr...
  - piva00 3y ago
    Those are just examples of two cities I'm closely familiar. People also bike everywhere in China, many Chinese cities have decent public transportation (much better than almost any non-big city in the USA). Small cities in the Netherlands are able to afford bus lines, and provide infrastructure for bikes which are much cheaper than roads for autos. Good public transportation is a net contributor to a city, it provides residents with ways to be more economically active without costing them much. You don't need underground metro, not even trams in most cases, a simple and reliable bus transit system can provide a lot if it's not delayed by traffic. You don't need to be rich to have decent and reliable public transportation, Southeast Asia has quite good examples of that.
  - adrianN 3y ago
    Berlin is quite poor and it still has decent public transport and good walkability. Public transport is far from profitable in Berlin. It's entirely possible to raise a family without a having a car in Berlin.
axpy 3y ago
I think you are missing the point. Yes I am currently living in Europe and yes almost every family own a car.The difference is when, how frequently its used and also the fact that you have alternatives. These article are idealiziling a car-free lifestyle that is definitely not quite ubiquitous but it does exists. Also, your idealized weather and topo do exists in the US, think California (and I would argue the entire west coast) but the infra, urbanism and often the laws do not allowe safe alternatives to cars and this is the core of the problem. Your comment make it like the whole EU has Mediterranean climate or is flat as Amsterdam, which cannot be further from the reality.

mrcrumb1 3y ago

I think it's worth emphasizing just how low the bar is in the US for public transportation bike infrastructure, and walkability, even in many of the big cities.

sktrdie 3y ago

Where do you get this data from? I've been living in Amsterdam for 5 years now and all of my friends or people that I know of that live somewhat in the city don't have a car... because (1) they can't afford it and (2) they don't need it. Biking infra is so freaking amazing that it makes me want to bike all the time instead of getting the car (even if I had one). Driving around with a car in Amsterdam is just madness. I did it a few times for moving heavy stuff around and it's a mess because you're redirected across streets making it 5x longer to get to where you have to. I think your experience comes more from people living outside the dutch cities, in more rural areas? Then it makes sense to own a car. It doesn't make sense in a densely populated area. But anyway the Netherlands has really figured it out when it comes to public transport. No other place comes close in my experience. People who grew up here perhaps don't realize how lucky they area... and how shit it is in other places.

TrueGeek 3y ago
Per capita car ownership in The Netherlands is comparable to nearby countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_motor_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territor... Not taking a side, I agree with you that trying to use a car in any of the larger Dutch cities would be crazy. But car ownership has sadly been on the rise recently.
ghusto 3y ago
This is likely an age thing. I suspect you're without a family? I think what he's getting at is that we cycle everywhere, except when we can't, which matches my experience.
- sktrdie 3y ago
  You're seriously driving around Amsterdam in a car? But why when a bicycle is 10x faster and easier?
  - ghusto 3y ago
    I generally don't drive anywhere that's under 15Km away, but there are exceptions. Taking the family to certain places just isn't feasible by bike sometimes.

ghusto 3y ago

Exactly this. Obviously I still need a car, but my day-to-day transport of choice is the bicycle. I will say this though: You people can't drive! I've seen more car accidents in my few years here than my entire _life_ in England!

earthling8118 3y ago

That's still a completely different reality than the US. Many people in my neighborhood have more than 1 vehicle per person. That's a far cry from less than half of families having a single car.