4 ms·

That’s not true. 2/3 of Parisians don’t even own a car and Paris is a very average city when it comes safety. Density is also pretty low for one of the biggest

by pjerem 3y ago

That’s not true. 2/3 of Parisians don’t even own a car and Paris is a very average city when it comes safety. Density is also pretty low for one of the biggest European cities. And it’s just a known example, there are a lot of cities way smaller than Paris where it’s easy to live car free.

nothercastle 3y ago
The French work week is 7 hours so they get an extra hour to fuck around with public transportation a day. So that might help quite a bit. Still I’d be curious how upper middle class folks with kids survive without cars. Maybe that 33% covers the affluent folks with kids tho.
- jddj 3y ago
  Are you saying here that you think traveling by metro in Paris takes an hour longer than driving would?
  - nothercastle 3y ago
    Yeah if you have to change transit method it adds a lot of extra time. So metro+ bus adds at least half an hour each way
- pjerem 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s a class issue because money won’t buy the inexistant parking lots around schools. Also money can actually buy you really nice bikes. It’s just that driving a car in Paris is hard and awful. I lived in a city of <1M inhabitants for the first 5 years of my son’s life without a car (in fact I had one but never used it for day to day life). Public transports and bikes can get you far faster than any car in rush hours. I’ve never had more than 30-40min between my door and my office, including depositing my son. The few times I did it with the car it took me the same time thanks to traffic and it was far more stressful. And it was in France, where public transports are ok-tier but far from top notch in Europe. Also the 7 hour day is pretty false. That’s the minimum time of a full-time job but most people are working 39-40 hours. It’s just that the extra hours are paid or are compensated with off time. In practice you’ll only work 7h/day if you are at the minimum wage.
- yardie 3y ago
  35 hour work week is for government employees. Obviously, there are a lot of them but there are still more nongovernmental employees who don't have the benefit of a government job or unions that work a typical 35-45hr/week. > Still I’d be curious how upper middle class folks with kids survive without cars. All my middle class friends the kids walk. Everywhere. There are public restrooms everywhere. There are buses, parks, libraries, supermarkets, stores everywhere.
  - nothercastle 3y ago
    I fully believe it’s possible if the density is there and the services are there to go with them. In the USA we sometimes get the density but not the public services and spaces.
bombcar 3y ago
2/3s sounds like a lot but it would be better to count how many households have no car. And the US is covered with cities that can be lived in car-free; but the tradeoffs are too great for most people. (By definition any rural town that’s about a square mile or two is walkable.) Cars are so cheap and so good that most everyone grabs one when they can.
- oaiey 3y ago
  2/3 is very realistic even for households. It is just prohibitive time wise (it takes more times in most cities to go by car than by train) and parking wise (densities is high, parking is on the street, searching a parking slot up to an hour, ...). You do not want to own a car.
  - tzs 3y ago
    Greater Paris has a 60-65% car ownership rate among households [1]. [1] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/france/motor-vehicle-ownership-per-household https://www.ceicdata.com/en/france/motor-vehicle-ownership-p...
    - nothercastle 3y ago
      Nailed it on finding the relevant statistic that’s representative of the actual situation
    - bombcar 3y ago
      That's pretty good though depending on what "greater Paris" is I suspect it's a bowl - trending to 99% ownership the further from the center you get. The goal shouldn't be "car free cities" it should be (at least in the USA) "first get it so households feel one car is fine".
      - oaiey 3y ago
        Totally agree. Mix it is. Car free is only possible in high density, high public transport coverage inner cities. Grande Paris is definitely not the zone I put my 2/3 statement on.

by pjerem 3y ago

nothercastle 3y ago

The French work week is 7 hours so they get an extra hour to fuck around with public transportation a day. So that might help quite a bit. Still I’d be curious how upper middle class folks with kids survive without cars. Maybe that 33% covers the affluent folks with kids tho.

jddj 3y ago
Are you saying here that you think traveling by metro in Paris takes an hour longer than driving would?
- nothercastle 3y ago
  Yeah if you have to change transit method it adds a lot of extra time. So metro+ bus adds at least half an hour each way
pjerem 3y ago
I don’t think it’s a class issue because money won’t buy the inexistant parking lots around schools. Also money can actually buy you really nice bikes. It’s just that driving a car in Paris is hard and awful. I lived in a city of <1M inhabitants for the first 5 years of my son’s life without a car (in fact I had one but never used it for day to day life). Public transports and bikes can get you far faster than any car in rush hours. I’ve never had more than 30-40min between my door and my office, including depositing my son. The few times I did it with the car it took me the same time thanks to traffic and it was far more stressful. And it was in France, where public transports are ok-tier but far from top notch in Europe. Also the 7 hour day is pretty false. That’s the minimum time of a full-time job but most people are working 39-40 hours. It’s just that the extra hours are paid or are compensated with off time. In practice you’ll only work 7h/day if you are at the minimum wage.
yardie 3y ago
35 hour work week is for government employees. Obviously, there are a lot of them but there are still more nongovernmental employees who don't have the benefit of a government job or unions that work a typical 35-45hr/week. > Still I’d be curious how upper middle class folks with kids survive without cars. All my middle class friends the kids walk. Everywhere. There are public restrooms everywhere. There are buses, parks, libraries, supermarkets, stores everywhere.
- nothercastle 3y ago
  I fully believe it’s possible if the density is there and the services are there to go with them. In the USA we sometimes get the density but not the public services and spaces.

bombcar 3y ago

2/3s sounds like a lot but it would be better to count how many households have no car. And the US is covered with cities that can be lived in car-free; but the tradeoffs are too great for most people. (By definition any rural town that’s about a square mile or two is walkable.) Cars are so cheap and so good that most everyone grabs one when they can.

oaiey 3y ago
2/3 is very realistic even for households. It is just prohibitive time wise (it takes more times in most cities to go by car than by train) and parking wise (densities is high, parking is on the street, searching a parking slot up to an hour, ...). You do not want to own a car.
- tzs 3y ago
  Greater Paris has a 60-65% car ownership rate among households [1]. [1] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/france/motor-vehicle-ownership-per-household https://www.ceicdata.com/en/france/motor-vehicle-ownership-p...
  - nothercastle 3y ago
    Nailed it on finding the relevant statistic that’s representative of the actual situation
  - bombcar 3y ago
    That's pretty good though depending on what "greater Paris" is I suspect it's a bowl - trending to 99% ownership the further from the center you get. The goal shouldn't be "car free cities" it should be (at least in the USA) "first get it so households feel one car is fine".
    - oaiey 3y ago
      Totally agree. Mix it is. Car free is only possible in high density, high public transport coverage inner cities. Grande Paris is definitely not the zone I put my 2/3 statement on.