5 ms·

If your entire life is based around your car, it's your most important and powerful symbol of autonomy, wealth, and personal liberty. The prospect of someone in

by Kalium 3y ago

If your entire life is based around your car, it's your most important and powerful symbol of autonomy, wealth, and personal liberty. The prospect of someone in government deciding one day that the life you live is no longer welcome and your touchstone is evil is incredibly jarring, at the very least. If you also live in an area where you cannot imagine how you could possibly live without using your car frequently, the prospect of a car-free city sounds a lot like you're being hung out to dry by people who don't care what happens to you. These reactions are a combination of poor messaging by those affecting change and a failure of a imagination by the car-bound. The first, at least, is avoidable.

jraph 3y ago
> it's your most important and powerful symbol of autonomy, wealth, and personal liberty Cars as virtue signaling? I'm not quite sympathetic to this case. This person's liberty is causing harm to everyone else and I don't care for their symbol of wealth. I'd like to say, "get off my lawn", were the lawn is actually my city. My liberty of not being polluted by noise and fine particles, and of easily and safely moving on as a pedestrian or biker, and of my earth's climate not being harmed is important as well. People could have their cars outside the city, reachable with good public transport, so it's not even like they couldn't have their symbol of wealth somewhere. It would also make sense that people don't have their personal cars in cities. We could have car sharing systems like we have for city bikes, which work great. Most cars sleep most of the times, this doesn't make quite sense. We could have fewer cars achieving the same usefulness with better a organization less focused on the individuals. Maybe a solution is that the car stops being seen as a symbol of wealth and liberty, and more like a liability / necessary evil, because this also doesn't make sense. Wanting to look wealthy is already a cursed concept. Why should anyone care that anyone looks wealthy? This is not what's important in life. What you think and what you do matters much more. Of course, this is a very good point, and this needs to be addressed. To be clear, I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing.
throw0101d 3y ago
> […] and personal liberty. Ironic given that driving is not a right—you need a license—and is highly regulated (e.g., insurance), while you can walk and cycle without any of those things. A cop can stop you in an automobile and ask for all sorts of documents, while doing the same walking or on a bus/tram/subway would probably be against most countries' constitutions. See the Oh the Urbanity video '“15-Minute City” Conspiracies Have It Backwards': * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXqY_j1m1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXqY_j1m1U
- underdeserver 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure a cop can stop you and ask for ID in most of the world, even most of the west, for no reason.
  - throw0101d 3y ago
    > […] for no reason. Not in Canada: * https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Know-Your-Rights-Booklet.pdf https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Know-Your-Rights... * https://www.jeffreismanlaw.ca/when-do-you-have-to-identify-yourself-to-toronto-police/ https://www.jeffreismanlaw.ca/when-do-you-have-to-identify-y... * https://collettreadllp.com/know-your-rights/can-you-refuse-to-show-id-to-the-police/ https://collettreadllp.com/know-your-rights/can-you-refuse-t... Further, you don't have to carry ID and can't get into trouble if you don't have any if walking.
    - underdeserver 3y ago
      Canada is a bit like the US. I would imagine France and Sweden to be the same. But I'll be very surprised if cops need a reason to ask for ID in Spain, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, ...
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  > while you can walk and cycle without any of those things. A few years ago a driver making a right-on-red bumped me in the crosswalk with his car. It was reckless but whatever no harm no foul. But then he got out, incorrectly thinking he had the right of way, and demanded my "papers." He was incredulous and furious that I didn't have insurance papers to show him, or thought I was refusing to. He ended up calling 911 about it, though they didn't come. Ever since then I can't get some questions out my head. Is that really how he thought it worked or was he just flustered? Do other people think like this? This was a middle-aged guy in a suit in a major city's business district, so presumably some sort of professional. Is he good at his job?
  - tejohnso 3y ago

by Kalium 3y ago

jraph 3y ago

> it's your most important and powerful symbol of autonomy, wealth, and personal liberty Cars as virtue signaling? I'm not quite sympathetic to this case. This person's liberty is causing harm to everyone else and I don't care for their symbol of wealth. I'd like to say, "get off my lawn", were the lawn is actually my city. My liberty of not being polluted by noise and fine particles, and of easily and safely moving on as a pedestrian or biker, and of my earth's climate not being harmed is important as well. People could have their cars outside the city, reachable with good public transport, so it's not even like they couldn't have their symbol of wealth somewhere. It would also make sense that people don't have their personal cars in cities. We could have car sharing systems like we have for city bikes, which work great. Most cars sleep most of the times, this doesn't make quite sense. We could have fewer cars achieving the same usefulness with better a organization less focused on the individuals. Maybe a solution is that the car stops being seen as a symbol of wealth and liberty, and more like a liability / necessary evil, because this also doesn't make sense. Wanting to look wealthy is already a cursed concept. Why should anyone care that anyone looks wealthy? This is not what's important in life. What you think and what you do matters much more. Of course, this is a very good point, and this needs to be addressed. To be clear, I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing.

throw0101d 3y ago

> […] and personal liberty. Ironic given that driving is not a right—you need a license—and is highly regulated (e.g., insurance), while you can walk and cycle without any of those things. A cop can stop you in an automobile and ask for all sorts of documents, while doing the same walking or on a bus/tram/subway would probably be against most countries' constitutions. See the Oh the Urbanity video '“15-Minute City” Conspiracies Have It Backwards': * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXqY_j1m1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXqY_j1m1U

underdeserver 3y ago
I'm pretty sure a cop can stop you and ask for ID in most of the world, even most of the west, for no reason.
- throw0101d 3y ago
  > […] for no reason. Not in Canada: * https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Know-Your-Rights-Booklet.pdf https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Know-Your-Rights... * https://www.jeffreismanlaw.ca/when-do-you-have-to-identify-yourself-to-toronto-police/ https://www.jeffreismanlaw.ca/when-do-you-have-to-identify-y... * https://collettreadllp.com/know-your-rights/can-you-refuse-to-show-id-to-the-police/ https://collettreadllp.com/know-your-rights/can-you-refuse-t... Further, you don't have to carry ID and can't get into trouble if you don't have any if walking.
  - underdeserver 3y ago
    Canada is a bit like the US. I would imagine France and Sweden to be the same. But I'll be very surprised if cops need a reason to ask for ID in Spain, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, ...
giraffe_lady 3y ago
> while you can walk and cycle without any of those things. A few years ago a driver making a right-on-red bumped me in the crosswalk with his car. It was reckless but whatever no harm no foul. But then he got out, incorrectly thinking he had the right of way, and demanded my "papers." He was incredulous and furious that I didn't have insurance papers to show him, or thought I was refusing to. He ended up calling 911 about it, though they didn't come. Ever since then I can't get some questions out my head. Is that really how he thought it worked or was he just flustered? Do other people think like this? This was a middle-aged guy in a suit in a major city's business district, so presumably some sort of professional. Is he good at his job?
- tejohnso 3y ago