6 ms·

People's aversion to change, even when the change is for something that is objectively better in every way, is really really annoying.

mrshadowgoose 3y ago
"Objectively better" according to my personal subjective values and beliefs. "Aversion to change" that I would like to force onto others.
geodel 3y ago
Obviously people are the problem. That's why cities which are people free are the best cities.
hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
It's a lot of work and money to convert a NA city to a car free one. It's probably impossible TBH. My city has the best public transit system in NA but still I can't imagine it be car free. It's going to literally kill people.
- b-side 3y ago
  I don't know where this sentiment comes from, you think NA cities didn't exist before the Ford Model-T? Many of these cities existed and worked even without everyone having a private horse/carriage they just had trolleys.
  - hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
    I'm fine if you want to go back to the 19th century. I don't.
  - rufus_foreman 3y ago
    >> you think NA cities didn't exist before the Ford Model-T? They existed but they were incredibly shitty, literally.
epolanski 3y ago
People mock the soviet way of building neighborhoods but it was miles better. Instead of extensive pointless suburbs where everybody has his house, they built huge 8/10 story buildings. The buildings were surrounded by parks, benches, places for kids to play. People aggregated a lot and everything was relatively close (building taller means you can build a lot closer to downtown). I have lived 6 months in Ohio, Columbus, and I can't but say you live much worse. One thing I noticed is that lack of good public transport is one of the major causes for neighborhoods to become ghettos and poor. You're a guy that lives some 15/20 miles off Columbus and there's a job in the city? Well, if you're that poor that you don't have a car you can't work there either. And nowadays you need at least 2/3k year for insurance alone. This lack of public transport is one of the major reasons why so many areas around big cities become slowly poor and ruined and people have tougher chances to start making a living. In 2024 with everybody owning a car Polish neighborhoods have transformed. Cars fill every single space. Kids are constrained to small often remote areas. Benches get removed to get more parking spaces. People don't aggregate anymore, there's a much smaller sense of a community. In many ways, the progress I have seen in Poland made the country just unhappier and lonelier. I would even bluntly say that my parents and my parents parents had it much better. They would party and dance every week, always on some trip or vacation. Sure, the party would have people bringing their own glasses, salami and something to drink, but people really enjoyed the times. Cars are just one of the major factors that transformed our cities for worse.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  Why did people buy cars if they didn't need them?
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Status symbol, larger shopping (cargo bikes weren't ever a thing due to lack of bike paths), vacation, business.
    - osigurdson 3y ago
      Everything other than status symbol seems legitimate
ctxc 3y ago
It seems to me that your "objectively better in every way" is subjective. If it were objectively better in every way, I'd give my car up obviously. But there's the _small_ matter of major inconvenience with places inaccessible by public transport, erratic public transport, bad last-mile solutions with private transportation waiting to fleece us for all we're worth, leaving me questioning my life choices when the last mile costs 10x what 90% of the journey cost me in public transport, not to mention the overall experience of having to switch between multiple modes of transport each way. Climate change...yes, but I'm not altruistic enough to go through this everyday.
- throwbadubadu 3y ago
  > But there's the _small_ matter of major inconvenience with places inaccessible by public transport, erratic public transport, bad last-mile solutions with private transportation waiting to fleece us for all we're worth, Where do you live? I see places becoming inaccessible by car due to missing parking places and traffic jams and just love to take a bike / scooter / public transport (which could be much better even if we'd put more focus there, and would also help the poorer people) or by feet. The very few occasions I need a car could be handled by car sharing or delivery services.. I regret having bought one (:
  - markus_zhang 3y ago
    I think it depends on, as you suggested, the location one lives. I think it is safe to say that if one has a family and live in the North America, there are few places, if there is any, that you can live a comfortable life without cars. I live in a city with advanced public transit system (of course, comparing to other NA apparently, not other continents). Theoretically, I can go around without much driving. But there are always moments that driving a car helps a lot. One example is going to Costco. A second example is to lay one's feet 50+ kms away from home. A third one is to go to a clinic whenever I would like. Cars enable flexibility. I think it's pretty hard to convince people to drop it, UNLESS the culture completely changes. Culture change would bring economical and political changes as well -- but that's a multi-decade process. This is why, may I say, that a car free policy is practically impossible for most, if not every NA city.
JoshTriplett 3y ago
People's tendency to describe a change they like as "objectively better" for everyone is really really annoying.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> People's aversion to change... When cars first became affordable in the US in the 1910's, due to mass production and financing, they were very quickly adopted in massive numbers. So I don't think it is fair to say that people have an aversion to change. Are you sure the annoyance isn't that they just don't want the changes you want them to want?

mrshadowgoose 3y ago

"Objectively better" according to my personal subjective values and beliefs. "Aversion to change" that I would like to force onto others.

geodel 3y ago

Obviously people are the problem. That's why cities which are people free are the best cities.

hnthrowaway0328 3y ago

It's a lot of work and money to convert a NA city to a car free one. It's probably impossible TBH. My city has the best public transit system in NA but still I can't imagine it be car free. It's going to literally kill people.

b-side 3y ago
I don't know where this sentiment comes from, you think NA cities didn't exist before the Ford Model-T? Many of these cities existed and worked even without everyone having a private horse/carriage they just had trolleys.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
  I'm fine if you want to go back to the 19th century. I don't.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  >> you think NA cities didn't exist before the Ford Model-T? They existed but they were incredibly shitty, literally.

epolanski 3y ago

People mock the soviet way of building neighborhoods but it was miles better. Instead of extensive pointless suburbs where everybody has his house, they built huge 8/10 story buildings. The buildings were surrounded by parks, benches, places for kids to play. People aggregated a lot and everything was relatively close (building taller means you can build a lot closer to downtown). I have lived 6 months in Ohio, Columbus, and I can't but say you live much worse. One thing I noticed is that lack of good public transport is one of the major causes for neighborhoods to become ghettos and poor. You're a guy that lives some 15/20 miles off Columbus and there's a job in the city? Well, if you're that poor that you don't have a car you can't work there either. And nowadays you need at least 2/3k year for insurance alone. This lack of public transport is one of the major reasons why so many areas around big cities become slowly poor and ruined and people have tougher chances to start making a living. In 2024 with everybody owning a car Polish neighborhoods have transformed. Cars fill every single space. Kids are constrained to small often remote areas. Benches get removed to get more parking spaces. People don't aggregate anymore, there's a much smaller sense of a community. In many ways, the progress I have seen in Poland made the country just unhappier and lonelier. I would even bluntly say that my parents and my parents parents had it much better. They would party and dance every week, always on some trip or vacation. Sure, the party would have people bringing their own glasses, salami and something to drink, but people really enjoyed the times. Cars are just one of the major factors that transformed our cities for worse.

osigurdson 3y ago
Why did people buy cars if they didn't need them?
- scotty79 3y ago
  Status symbol, larger shopping (cargo bikes weren't ever a thing due to lack of bike paths), vacation, business.
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    Everything other than status symbol seems legitimate

ctxc 3y ago

It seems to me that your "objectively better in every way" is subjective. If it were objectively better in every way, I'd give my car up obviously. But there's the _small_ matter of major inconvenience with places inaccessible by public transport, erratic public transport, bad last-mile solutions with private transportation waiting to fleece us for all we're worth, leaving me questioning my life choices when the last mile costs 10x what 90% of the journey cost me in public transport, not to mention the overall experience of having to switch between multiple modes of transport each way. Climate change...yes, but I'm not altruistic enough to go through this everyday.

throwbadubadu 3y ago
> But there's the _small_ matter of major inconvenience with places inaccessible by public transport, erratic public transport, bad last-mile solutions with private transportation waiting to fleece us for all we're worth, Where do you live? I see places becoming inaccessible by car due to missing parking places and traffic jams and just love to take a bike / scooter / public transport (which could be much better even if we'd put more focus there, and would also help the poorer people) or by feet. The very few occasions I need a car could be handled by car sharing or delivery services.. I regret having bought one (:
- markus_zhang 3y ago
  I think it depends on, as you suggested, the location one lives. I think it is safe to say that if one has a family and live in the North America, there are few places, if there is any, that you can live a comfortable life without cars. I live in a city with advanced public transit system (of course, comparing to other NA apparently, not other continents). Theoretically, I can go around without much driving. But there are always moments that driving a car helps a lot. One example is going to Costco. A second example is to lay one's feet 50+ kms away from home. A third one is to go to a clinic whenever I would like. Cars enable flexibility. I think it's pretty hard to convince people to drop it, UNLESS the culture completely changes. Culture change would bring economical and political changes as well -- but that's a multi-decade process. This is why, may I say, that a car free policy is practically impossible for most, if not every NA city.

JoshTriplett 3y ago

People's tendency to describe a change they like as "objectively better" for everyone is really really annoying.

rufus_foreman 3y ago

>> People's aversion to change... When cars first became affordable in the US in the 1910's, due to mass production and financing, they were very quickly adopted in massive numbers. So I don't think it is fair to say that people have an aversion to change. Are you sure the annoyance isn't that they just don't want the changes you want them to want?