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It's so weird how increasingly irrelevant Europe is becoming on the world stage. How is a single American private compan lapping around all of the EU seemingly
by tekla 3y ago
It's so weird how increasingly irrelevant Europe is becoming on the world stage. How is a single American private compan lapping around all of the EU seemingly effortlessly?
- 627467 3y agoIf your read the article I linked above and countless adjacent ones you'll see a subtext of blaming "unfair State support" (ie. Pentagon/USG) for SpaceX success. Before spaceX, the target was Boeing. Ultimately it is really about being desinterested/unambitious/distracted.
- adastra22 3y ago…says the European state-sponsored rocket company.
- raverbashing 3y agoYeah, but Boeing/ULA is also way behind of SpaceX I've heard this called "boomer engineering" and I couldn't agree more SpaceX has people and procedures with way more flexibility to do stuff (and a lot of unpaid overtime). Which can be good in some cases and bad in others
- soco 3y agoI don't get the part with unpaid overtime. As salaries are definitely not the biggest cost for them, why not just hiring twice as many?
- raverbashing 3y agoBecause the number of good metallurgists, physicists, engineers is limited and SpaceX (and I assume probably Arianne as well) have limits on the citizenship of who they can hire
- adastra22 3y agoApplying twice the people to a project doesn’t make it go twice as fast. And salaries are their biggest cost.
- bombcar 3y agoPrecisely because it is a private company. It’s lapping US Government space flight too, and mainly because it can use its rockets for any customer, not just the defined mission.
- tekla 3y agoYes, because that was literally the point of the COTS and Commercial Crew
- arianeprivate 3y agoAriane Space is private, too. United Launch Alliance is also private. I think there are many reasons for the current situation. First, Space X has a grand vision and is driven by it. They have excellent management and ingenious engineers. Second, (IMHO) Obama's economic policies included picking winners. Space X got a juicy contract for many, many missions. The US is buying US first, so Space X has a nice base-line launch volume that enables them to go towards "mass"-manufacturing. As a result, cheaper prices drive demand even higher, increase volume, and lower prices. The US government has a more innovative approach to industry policies than the EU. This brings me to the third point: what the EU is doing wrong. While the US tends to _buy the product_ of the new industry they want to create, the EU _funds the research_. This leads to the current situation in which Europe, which had a lead in methane engine research[1], has no methane engine, while the US has a company that earns money by launching a reusable methane engine. Point four applies to the US and EU: While Ariane Space is private, the money comes from the EU and the partner countries (mainly Germany and France). Engineers did not design Ariane 6; it was created by politicians who squabbled about where which part would be developed and manufactured. There were two competing plans, one driven by Germany and one by France, based on which country would benefit more. I'm unsure about ULA, but at least SLS had the same problem. So, in Europe, government funding comes with strings attached, and it goes towards research. People laugh about the CEO of Ariane (rightfully so for other reasons) when he complains that Europe is not buying enough launches from them to justify reusability. But he is right on this one. A rocket company needs a baseline of demand to justify going into "mass"-production and reusability. _After_ that, the lower prices will create new demand. In my opinion, this is how it worked for Space X and what Europe failed to see. In my opinion, both Tesla and Space X are good examples of how to establish new industries (from the view of the government): * find a private entity with a grand vision * buy their product * use economics of scale to drive down prices The EU has started incorporating some of these ideas in its latest round of research funding. [1] I don't have hard evidence for this other than that one of the researchers told me. Even if Europe didn't have the lead, we had cutting-edge research.
- phs318u 3y agoThis seems like a peculiar take. Outsourcing one part of your space program while your own capability is still being built, is surely just pragmatic and is hardly a leading indicator (let alone 'the' indicator) for European irrelevance.
- bandyaboot 3y agoEurope is now the only large scale producer of well-built commercial aircraft.
- FanaHOVA 3y agohttps://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/ https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/
- resolutebat 3y agoChina has entered the chat Yes, they still have a long way to go, but the C919 is flying and hasn't crashed yet.
- boc 3y agoEh if Boeing dies Lockheed Martin can get back into the commercial aviation business fairly quickly. They made the best passenger plane of its time[1] after all... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-1011_TriStar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-1011_TriStar
- The_Colonel 3y agoThat's a plane designed in the 1960s and last produced in 1984. There's a massive gap in development which Lockheed would need to run through. Why would Lockheed even do this? (assuming there isn't a massive subsidy from US government). Building a passenger jet isn't even that difficult. The difficult part is making it economical - low weight, fuel consumption, high reliability, parts availability, service/repair centers, training facilities, trained crews ...
- boc 3y agoLMT is the third largest manufacturer of aircraft in the world, after Boeing and Airbus. They've built commercial aircraft before and are the best positioned to re-enter that market if there is a (government-encouraged) opening from massive failures at Boeing. I don't think they'll walk into it unprovoked, but my point is that Boeing isn't the only game in town long-term in the US.
- smaddox 3y agoIt doesn't help that most of Europe is facing significant population decline: https://zeihan.com/demographics-part-4-the-european-breakdown/ https://zeihan.com/demographics-part-4-the-european-breakdow...
- smaddox 3y agoAnyone care to comment on why this concise response to the parent's question, supported with a link to the relevant data, was down voted? I'm confused.
- snowpid 3y agoIt's a usual take on any European topic (made by an American?). The website above is about space, now we talk about demographics? How? this thread is a better one, at least some posters write down arguments about the topic (though I know them) but many heated Americans really disturb the discussion about European politics (EU is in decline, all regulation is bad etc.) it's very annoying.
- soperj 3y agoI mean, they're on par with another American private space company, Blue Origin.
- TMWNN 3y agoLet me paraphrase an excellent comment on Reddit from the other day, in response to one of the usual lies about how the only reason SpaceX is ahead of the rest of the world is that it got zillions from the US government: >If large amounts of funding is the only thing required to succeed, Blue Origin would now have a nuclear-powered spacecraft orbiting Pluto.