7 ms·

Don't we in Europe have our own space rockets?

by Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

tekla 3y ago
No. Ariane 5 is retired, and 6 is still in development. Other launchers are not currently available.
- zettabomb 3y ago
  It's a very unfortunate situation. I don't understand why they didn't keep Ariane 5 going until 6 was ready - I've worked in the space industry (in the US) and customers would pay us ungodly amounts of money to not change something even when costs started rising because of old instrumentation, lack of knowledgeable and alive personnel, or our own suppliers going out of business/getting bought out and killing the product line we needed. They'd pay 2-3x the cost of a redesigned product (which would be subject to the same level of testing as the original) just to keep the old one, with the mindset that "it hasn't failed in 50 years so it won't fail now". I mean we're talking about measurements being made with pen plotters because they'd get angry that "something changed" if we sent them a digital plot taken on the same equipment.
  - okanat 3y ago
    Well they put their eggs into one Arianne 6 shaped basket, hoping that it won't delay much. It got delayed by a lot.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > I don't understand why they didn't keep Ariane 5 going until 6 was ready It is not as if the US had no capability gaps. For a long long while they had to buy seats from Russia to get their astronauts to the ISS. > we're talking about measurements being made with pen plotters because they'd get angry that "something changed" if we sent them a digital plot taken on the same equipment That level of conservativism doesn’t sound entirely healthy to be honest.
    - adastra22 3y ago
      It’s not healthy. That’s how you end up with Boeing et al.
    - zettabomb 3y ago
      >It is not as if the US had no capability gaps. For a long long while they had to buy seats from Russia to get their astronauts to the ISS. There is a slightly different situation here, which is that the Space Shuttle was kinda... not that safe. I didn't like that either but for human rated spacecraft the requirements are all more strict, for good reasons. Unfortunately, those reasons are mostly things like Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia. But overall I think I agree. >That level of conservativism doesn’t sound entirely healthy to be honest. We weren't convinced it was either. Did you know they don't make parts for pen plotters anymore? Somehow the customer was surprised by this. We did manage to convince the right people there to allow the switch eventually but it was a struggle.
Cody-99 3y ago
They do but not to this orbit. The smaller Vega rocket is still putting smaller satellites into orbit. Until the Ariane 6 comes online ESA is outsourcing to spaceX (which while unfortunate is better than paying the Russians to launch a Soyuz from Guiana).
- huytersd 3y ago
  They should go with the Indians too so they don’t put all their eggs in one basket.
- nolongerthere 3y ago
  why is using spacex unfortunate?
  - Cody-99 3y ago
    Because it forces the EU to depend on the US to access space. The main points of the ESA and Galileo GNSS are so Europe doesn't have to depend on the US for access to space.
graemep 3y ago
The European Space Agency does, but is limited. The only European country with its own launch capability is Russia. The UK is notable as being the only country to have had that capability and lost it - which says a lot of the lack of vision and ambition of the British ruling class.
- XorNot 3y ago
  The problem is we were being very stupid about fascist regimes for a very long time in the West - the peace dividend of the end of the Cold War was treated as permanent even as we watched states like Russia and China become more and more authoritarian again. Basically the belief that "economic ties would supercede ideology or meglomania". I suspect if Europe had taken a stronger line on Russia and the strategic threat it represented, then they'd have a stronger launch market since "we'll just buy a Russian launch" wouldn't be treated as a serious option (i.e. even the US was treating this as an option for manned spaceflight, and ULA using old Russian engines on their rockets without a home-grown option till Falcon 9 is ridiculous).
  - graemep 3y ago
    I think the word fascist is not accurate of Russia, at least. Maybe just dictatorship is more accurate. I entirely agree with what you way though. The west is extremely naive in its world view, and has been so for many decades. Silly ideas like "the end of history" are still influencing attitudes even though they are so clearly wrong that no one would explicitly espouse them. The west has forgotten that not everyone is going to go along with the idea of social liberal free market democracy, and that it is not as appealing to many people from other cultures.
OvbiousError 3y ago
From the article: However, this lack of access to space should come to an end soon. The ESA has shipped stages of the first flight hardware for the Ariane 6 rocket to its French Guiana spaceport. While the ESA has not set a specific launch date, it is working toward a window that extends from June 15 through July 31. And wow, lots of hate for Europe in this thread. Salty much
- fransje26 3y ago
  > And wow, lots of hate [..] in this thread. Salty much Arguments involving Musk's products, even tangentially, tend to do that..
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  > lots of hate for Europe in this thread. Salty much Extreme hatred and saltier than a salt mine here.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  It's funny because threads that are critical about the US don't see this type of "leave the EU alone!" comments. It's so weird that even Americans have less of a weird patriotic response to any criticism than Europeans.

Don't we in Europe have our own space rockets?

tekla 3y ago

No. Ariane 5 is retired, and 6 is still in development. Other launchers are not currently available.

zettabomb 3y ago
It's a very unfortunate situation. I don't understand why they didn't keep Ariane 5 going until 6 was ready - I've worked in the space industry (in the US) and customers would pay us ungodly amounts of money to not change something even when costs started rising because of old instrumentation, lack of knowledgeable and alive personnel, or our own suppliers going out of business/getting bought out and killing the product line we needed. They'd pay 2-3x the cost of a redesigned product (which would be subject to the same level of testing as the original) just to keep the old one, with the mindset that "it hasn't failed in 50 years so it won't fail now". I mean we're talking about measurements being made with pen plotters because they'd get angry that "something changed" if we sent them a digital plot taken on the same equipment.
- okanat 3y ago
  Well they put their eggs into one Arianne 6 shaped basket, hoping that it won't delay much. It got delayed by a lot.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > I don't understand why they didn't keep Ariane 5 going until 6 was ready It is not as if the US had no capability gaps. For a long long while they had to buy seats from Russia to get their astronauts to the ISS. > we're talking about measurements being made with pen plotters because they'd get angry that "something changed" if we sent them a digital plot taken on the same equipment That level of conservativism doesn’t sound entirely healthy to be honest.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    It’s not healthy. That’s how you end up with Boeing et al.
  - zettabomb 3y ago
    >It is not as if the US had no capability gaps. For a long long while they had to buy seats from Russia to get their astronauts to the ISS. There is a slightly different situation here, which is that the Space Shuttle was kinda... not that safe. I didn't like that either but for human rated spacecraft the requirements are all more strict, for good reasons. Unfortunately, those reasons are mostly things like Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia. But overall I think I agree. >That level of conservativism doesn’t sound entirely healthy to be honest. We weren't convinced it was either. Did you know they don't make parts for pen plotters anymore? Somehow the customer was surprised by this. We did manage to convince the right people there to allow the switch eventually but it was a struggle.

Cody-99 3y ago

They do but not to this orbit. The smaller Vega rocket is still putting smaller satellites into orbit. Until the Ariane 6 comes online ESA is outsourcing to spaceX (which while unfortunate is better than paying the Russians to launch a Soyuz from Guiana).

huytersd 3y ago
They should go with the Indians too so they don’t put all their eggs in one basket.
nolongerthere 3y ago
why is using spacex unfortunate?
- Cody-99 3y ago
  Because it forces the EU to depend on the US to access space. The main points of the ESA and Galileo GNSS are so Europe doesn't have to depend on the US for access to space.

graemep 3y ago

The European Space Agency does, but is limited. The only European country with its own launch capability is Russia. The UK is notable as being the only country to have had that capability and lost it - which says a lot of the lack of vision and ambition of the British ruling class.

XorNot 3y ago
The problem is we were being very stupid about fascist regimes for a very long time in the West - the peace dividend of the end of the Cold War was treated as permanent even as we watched states like Russia and China become more and more authoritarian again. Basically the belief that "economic ties would supercede ideology or meglomania". I suspect if Europe had taken a stronger line on Russia and the strategic threat it represented, then they'd have a stronger launch market since "we'll just buy a Russian launch" wouldn't be treated as a serious option (i.e. even the US was treating this as an option for manned spaceflight, and ULA using old Russian engines on their rockets without a home-grown option till Falcon 9 is ridiculous).
- graemep 3y ago
  I think the word fascist is not accurate of Russia, at least. Maybe just dictatorship is more accurate. I entirely agree with what you way though. The west is extremely naive in its world view, and has been so for many decades. Silly ideas like "the end of history" are still influencing attitudes even though they are so clearly wrong that no one would explicitly espouse them. The west has forgotten that not everyone is going to go along with the idea of social liberal free market democracy, and that it is not as appealing to many people from other cultures.

OvbiousError 3y ago

From the article: However, this lack of access to space should come to an end soon. The ESA has shipped stages of the first flight hardware for the Ariane 6 rocket to its French Guiana spaceport. While the ESA has not set a specific launch date, it is working toward a window that extends from June 15 through July 31. And wow, lots of hate for Europe in this thread. Salty much

fransje26 3y ago
> And wow, lots of hate [..] in this thread. Salty much Arguments involving Musk's products, even tangentially, tend to do that..
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
> lots of hate for Europe in this thread. Salty much Extreme hatred and saltier than a salt mine here.
mardifoufs 3y ago
It's funny because threads that are critical about the US don't see this type of "leave the EU alone!" comments. It's so weird that even Americans have less of a weird patriotic response to any criticism than Europeans.