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The problem with that is that it creates an incentive to hoard real estate for the purpose of wealth preservation, which can have major detrimental effects. Eve

The problem with that is that it creates an incentive to hoard real estate for the purpose of wealth preservation, which can have major detrimental effects. Even using stocks for this purpose may cause or exacerbate problems, such as asset bubbles. Why is it preferable for people to hoard land than money? Land is a tangible and productive asset; if I had to choose between the two, I'd rather that it be efficiently allocated than that money were. Only those people who desperately need land, in order to make productive use of it, should have any financial incentive to own it.

verall 3y ago
And this can be solved with real estate taxes - a disincentive from just holding land.
- radlad 3y ago
  For real estates, but not for other assets classes. Unless you tax the ownership of every asset. That begs the question, is even more regulation really the best solution?
  - verall 3y ago
    > For real estates, but not for other assets classes. Unless you tax the ownership of every asset. Other assets are (supposedly) productive - investing in companies lets them do research, pay employees, etc, investing in property improvement (as opposed to land) gives more people nicer homes. > That begs the question, is even more regulation really the best solution? Even more than what? These regulations would improve things. Which particular regulation do you feel is harmful?
    - radlad 3y ago
      To summarize the thread so far, we need to create more money in circulation in order allow for more economy activity, and penalize preserving wealth in the form of capital. Allegedly, "if you want to preserve wealth - it's easy just buy wealth (stocks, real estate, land)." In other words, this is intentional to push people towards preserving wealth in the form of assets. But this creates issues where assets become over-valued - and some assets (real estate and land) are necessary to survive. Your proposal is to tax the ownership of assets (i.e. the preservation of wealth) in order to ... push people back towards capital (i.e. for the preservation of wealth)? This doesn't really compute.
      - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
        You've phrased it well, especially because taxes are (to first order) deflationary, as the negative of government spending; tax revenue is effectively taken out of circulation and deleted from the economy, while government spending is (effectively) money that is printed anew.
      - verall 3y ago
        The point is to push people towards productive assets - investments in people building things - and to generally limit wealth preservation. Unlimited wealth preservation = dynasties, which is not a goal. Inflation is a sort of (not very effective) flat wealth tax. But inflation is necessary because in a deflationary system the best investment is holding cash, which makes everything freeze up. Wealth should be (minimally, progressively) taxed, mainly to prevent serious distortions when someone has $1B in the bank and most have $10K. Taxes, regulations, and subsidies on assets needed to survive (shelter, utilities, food, medicine) are necessary to keep these items available to everyone, because the market tends to break down in these situations.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  One of the difficulties with this is the question of how you tax an asset whose value you don't necessarily know for certain, because real estate is not fungible and its market price is only really known when that specific parcel is changing hands between unaffiliated parties. Perhaps you could apply the tax as a lien, set as a percentage of an unknown value, and deferred until it is next sold, and have the government take back ownership of the land if that percentage reaches 100%. But even this might only encourage people to trade land between agents at suppressed prices, just to pay off the tax, and then flip it at its "real" price shortly thereafter.
  - verall 3y ago
    Every local government in America has basically figured out how to value real estate for taxation, although it's not perfect - I think that loans against a property should be limited to it's tax value as a first step, and ultimately land-value rather than improvement value should be taxed based on who else is trying to purchase the land.
datavirtue 3y ago
Taxes and depreciation eat at that wealth. Better to invest in a going concern.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> that it creates an incentive to hoard real estate for the purpose of wealth preservation It creates an incentive to create and hoarde value. Western real estate as a market being broken is orthogonal to the system. (Case in point: Japan.)
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  Japan has had three decades of deflation. So it does seem that when cash holds its value, people don't need to speculate on real estate. In the '80s, when it had high inflation, it grew a real estate bubble well beyond the 2008 US bubble (despite plenty of construction). China has rampant overconstruction and a plummeting birth rate, and yet it has built a real estate bubble perhaps even beyond '80s Japan, because its population saw real estate as a safe place to store and grow their wealth.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Japan has had three decades of deflation It’s had three decades of flirting with deflation. Its price levels have been rising for at least the last decade [1]. (Albeit, not steadily.) [1] https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/cpi/158c.html https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/cpi/158c.html
    - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
      At least prior to the pandemic, that price growth can be almost entirely attributed to the Abenomics policy of a rising sales tax (which went from 5 to 8 percent in 2014, and then to 10% in 2019). This was deliberately implemented to cause consumer price inflation and accelerate consumption (due to the expectation that prices would rise in the future). Consumption tax is included in the CPI. If you look at base prices before sales tax, they're almost perfectly flat between 2010 and 2020. Anyway, the CPI is flat enough over the decades that the Japanese yen has largely held its value, at least on domestic products, and this supports the thesis that Japanese citizens haven't felt it necessary to accumulate real estate to protect their wealth. As an aside, the fact that the purchasing power of the US dollar has fallen substantially over that time, while the exchange rate of JPY to USD has risen, is something quite fascinating to me. I don't see it discussed nearly enough.

verall 3y ago

And this can be solved with real estate taxes - a disincentive from just holding land.

radlad 3y ago
For real estates, but not for other assets classes. Unless you tax the ownership of every asset. That begs the question, is even more regulation really the best solution?
- verall 3y ago
  > For real estates, but not for other assets classes. Unless you tax the ownership of every asset. Other assets are (supposedly) productive - investing in companies lets them do research, pay employees, etc, investing in property improvement (as opposed to land) gives more people nicer homes. > That begs the question, is even more regulation really the best solution? Even more than what? These regulations would improve things. Which particular regulation do you feel is harmful?
  - radlad 3y ago
    To summarize the thread so far, we need to create more money in circulation in order allow for more economy activity, and penalize preserving wealth in the form of capital. Allegedly, "if you want to preserve wealth - it's easy just buy wealth (stocks, real estate, land)." In other words, this is intentional to push people towards preserving wealth in the form of assets. But this creates issues where assets become over-valued - and some assets (real estate and land) are necessary to survive. Your proposal is to tax the ownership of assets (i.e. the preservation of wealth) in order to ... push people back towards capital (i.e. for the preservation of wealth)? This doesn't really compute.
    - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
      You've phrased it well, especially because taxes are (to first order) deflationary, as the negative of government spending; tax revenue is effectively taken out of circulation and deleted from the economy, while government spending is (effectively) money that is printed anew.
    - verall 3y ago
      The point is to push people towards productive assets - investments in people building things - and to generally limit wealth preservation. Unlimited wealth preservation = dynasties, which is not a goal. Inflation is a sort of (not very effective) flat wealth tax. But inflation is necessary because in a deflationary system the best investment is holding cash, which makes everything freeze up. Wealth should be (minimally, progressively) taxed, mainly to prevent serious distortions when someone has $1B in the bank and most have $10K. Taxes, regulations, and subsidies on assets needed to survive (shelter, utilities, food, medicine) are necessary to keep these items available to everyone, because the market tends to break down in these situations.
mitthrowaway2 3y ago
One of the difficulties with this is the question of how you tax an asset whose value you don't necessarily know for certain, because real estate is not fungible and its market price is only really known when that specific parcel is changing hands between unaffiliated parties. Perhaps you could apply the tax as a lien, set as a percentage of an unknown value, and deferred until it is next sold, and have the government take back ownership of the land if that percentage reaches 100%. But even this might only encourage people to trade land between agents at suppressed prices, just to pay off the tax, and then flip it at its "real" price shortly thereafter.
- verall 3y ago
  Every local government in America has basically figured out how to value real estate for taxation, although it's not perfect - I think that loans against a property should be limited to it's tax value as a first step, and ultimately land-value rather than improvement value should be taxed based on who else is trying to purchase the land.

datavirtue 3y ago

Taxes and depreciation eat at that wealth. Better to invest in a going concern.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> that it creates an incentive to hoard real estate for the purpose of wealth preservation It creates an incentive to create and hoarde value. Western real estate as a market being broken is orthogonal to the system. (Case in point: Japan.)

mitthrowaway2 3y ago
Japan has had three decades of deflation. So it does seem that when cash holds its value, people don't need to speculate on real estate. In the '80s, when it had high inflation, it grew a real estate bubble well beyond the 2008 US bubble (despite plenty of construction). China has rampant overconstruction and a plummeting birth rate, and yet it has built a real estate bubble perhaps even beyond '80s Japan, because its population saw real estate as a safe place to store and grow their wealth.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Japan has had three decades of deflation It’s had three decades of flirting with deflation. Its price levels have been rising for at least the last decade [1]. (Albeit, not steadily.) [1] https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/cpi/158c.html https://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/cpi/158c.html
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    At least prior to the pandemic, that price growth can be almost entirely attributed to the Abenomics policy of a rising sales tax (which went from 5 to 8 percent in 2014, and then to 10% in 2019). This was deliberately implemented to cause consumer price inflation and accelerate consumption (due to the expectation that prices would rise in the future). Consumption tax is included in the CPI. If you look at base prices before sales tax, they're almost perfectly flat between 2010 and 2020. Anyway, the CPI is flat enough over the decades that the Japanese yen has largely held its value, at least on domestic products, and this supports the thesis that Japanese citizens haven't felt it necessary to accumulate real estate to protect their wealth. As an aside, the fact that the purchasing power of the US dollar has fallen substantially over that time, while the exchange rate of JPY to USD has risen, is something quite fascinating to me. I don't see it discussed nearly enough.