7 ms·

Without seeing the actual content in question it's hard to judge, but assuming that the said comments were made in good humor, I have to ask, are they really th

by Indyan 14y ago

Without seeing the actual content in question it's hard to judge, but assuming that the said comments were made in good humor, I have to ask, are they really that offensive? If comedians are allowed to crack nigger jokes and my fat momma jokes, then why can't they crack shut up bitch jokes? Or is this more about where he said than what he said.

AndrewDucker 14y ago
A comedian, on stage in a comedy club, can say whatever they like. A representative of Dell, standing in front of Dell employees, should not be telling a chunk of those employees that they are worth less because of their gender.
- Tichy 14y ago
  I thought it was a hired comedian, not a representative of Dell. Of course it was still a very bad choice.
- rurounijones 14y ago
  Devil's advocate: "I am a famous comedian well known for humour type X; Dell hired me to MC their event knowing this; which is at least tacit approval of my routine. Otherwise they obviously wouldn't have hired me" If you have to hire someone and tell them not to use their trademark humour then why are you hiring them in the first place?
  - daeken 14y ago
    I don't think anyone is saying that the comedian didn't have the right to say what he did, or even that he shouldn't have said it. The lapse in judgement is on Dell, not on the comedian.
  - AndrewDucker 14y ago
    Absolutely. I don't blame the comedian for the situation - he was carrying out his job. I blame the people who booked someone without checking they were appropriate.
  - Deestan 14y ago
    Yes, that's the point. Dell are the ones to blame for putting that guy on stage, and they are getting the criticism. MC, however despicable, just did his thing as advertised.
    - sp332 14y ago
      I don't think "Dell" deserves the blame. I think whoever booked this guy is to blame.
      - anotherthrow 14y ago
        That would be a representative of Dell, acting on behalf of Dell, arranging for payment to be made by Dell.
        sp332 14y ago
        And hopefully punished or even fired by Dell, because they're not representing Dell very well.
- Indyan 14y ago
  But was he a representative of Dell? If you hire a comedian, then does it become his responsibility to stick to your sensibilities? The onus should be on Dell and not on the comedian. Moreover, since when are we supposed to interpret what a comedian says so literally? The comment that seems to be most offensive is "Thank god there's so few women in this business, keep up the good work!" Taken sarcastically, that very statement would become an indictment of the tech industry for failing to maintain a gender balance. I am certain that if the same line had come from a lady, no one would have found it offensive. Now, I am not saying that the comedian in question isn't misogynist. I know nothing about his personality. I am simply trying to play the devil's advocate. I just want to highlight that context and intention matter. Otherwise, Russel Peters would be in jail by now. Also, why I am being downvoted to oblivion for raising a pretty reasonable point of discussion? In my mind, downvotes shouldn't be used as a tool for censorship, or to restrict discussion. It should be used for quality control more than anything else.
  - jbri 14y ago
    > I am certain that if the same line had come from a lady, no one would have found it offensive. Well yes, because context matters. When you have a power disparity, comedy only goes one way - if a member of a majority group makes disparaging remarks about a minority group, that's not funny, it's straight-up bigotry.
    - roopeshv 14y ago
      so anyone can make a joke about asian guys, you know because there are over a billion them in this world
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    Don't try to interpret this logically. Interpret it as a weird expression of American culture. In the US, we consider racism/sexism to be the worst thing ever. Compare to female promiscuity in India, or perhaps being disloyal to your family (I'm guessing from your username that you might be from India). For example, when I was working in India, I mentioned that my friend's babymomma (the mother of his child, to whom he was not married) was visiting me. The ladies in the office gave me a rather shocked and horrified reaction. In the US, you'd get the same reaction if you made a joke about Gujus. My suggestion is that if you are in the US, play along with it and just accept it as a weird Americanism. In much the same way, Indians constantly asking me about my family is just a funny cultural thing I play along with.
Lewton 14y ago
His jokes were along the lines of "Thank god there's so few women in this business, keep up the good work!" It's hard to see when that would ever be acceptable
kzrdude 14y ago
Check this HN story 2 days ago, for an account from the audience: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3965084 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3965084
polemic 14y ago
So what you mean is: "Lighten Up"? http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/
- Tichy 14y ago
  He is a comedian. It's difficult to judge his show because I think he is danish or something, so no idea if he is really anti-women or in fact making parodies of that stance. I don't think the cause of women would be served if pointing to the problem would not be allowed anymore. In fact that has traditionally been the role of comedians, to say the things others dare not or may not say. Again, I can not really judge his performance, as I don't know it, so I certainly don't want to defend him. Just adding a word of caution to not judge rashly.
  - dagw 14y ago
    He's not a comedian. He's an author, motivational speaker and media pundit with a long history of making misogynistic statements, who also does the occasional stand up show at events.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      That wasn't obvious from the article, thanks for clarifying. I guess he (deservedly) isn't well known outside of Denmark...
- stfu 14y ago
  Is the "Lighten Up" posting becoming some sort of a meme now? This is the 3rd time it is posted in this discussion...
liedra 14y ago
This was theoretically a professional partner event. You wouldn't get a comedian on stage cracking racist jokes at those, so why should sexist jokes be acceptable? Perhaps you should actually read the original report by the Danish blogger: http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/ http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male... Then, perhaps, you should put yourself in women-in-tech's shoes and ask yourself why this might be offensive. We're a small minority which is, on the one hand, desperately in need of encouragement, yet, on the other hand, continually set back by the sexist, intimidating attitudes of some men in the industry. For some other examples you might want to see http://programmersbeingdicks.tumblr.com/ http://programmersbeingdicks.tumblr.com/
- mark_integerdsv 14y ago
  That tumblr link is a blinding endichtment on everything you seem to stand for. Can you see this? Can you see that the mountains of scorn you heap on 'men in tech' represent the very landscape of sexism you rail against? As a 'male in tech' and a husband, and a son, and a father of two girls... as a friend and a collegue or as a boss, this shit has moved from mildly aggravating to outright hurtful. Women in tech: it's not all men. It's some men, don't sink to their level, please lead by example instead.
  - calibraxis 14y ago
    Well, as a male, I'm absolutely fine with that site! The problem of sexism is patriarchy. (Why's the software industry hyper-male? And if you're from the US, ever wonder why every single president has been male? One of those funny coincidences?) It's not just some bad male apples. I'm fine saying that I'm a privileged sexist male, because I've lived all my life in societies with bizarre preoccupations with gender roles, where one gender dominates the other.
  - liedra 14y ago
    I didn't say it was "all men". I said, deliberately, "some men". I know of many, very supportive, men in technology, who understand what it is to get this stuff right. It's a real shame that there are some who wilfully ignore the issue's existence, or who exacerbate it, or who think that women should just "lighten up" about it. As a man in technology, you come with a whole heap of privilege, you need to understand what it's like from the other side. That tumblr rightly calls out people in tech who are dicks, particularly to women. Without sites like this, people might continue thinking that this sort of behaviour is acceptable.
dagw 14y ago
The guy in question isn't really a comedian, but a self-help author, motivational speaker and general loud obnoxious media personality. Of course it's often hard to separate the media persona from the 'real' person, but based on his body of work there is no evidence to assume to he doesn't genuinely believe in the views he presents, even if he does use hyperbole to present them. Basically given whom we're dealing with, and his long history of misogynistic commentary, there is no reason to assume the comments where purely in good humor.
peteretep 14y ago
> If comedians are allowed to crack nigger jokes and my fat momma jokes, then why can't they crack shut up bitch jokes? If a comedian at a Dell event had used the word 'nigger' in almost any joke context, someone would have been fired.

by Indyan 14y ago

AndrewDucker 14y ago

A comedian, on stage in a comedy club, can say whatever they like. A representative of Dell, standing in front of Dell employees, should not be telling a chunk of those employees that they are worth less because of their gender.

Tichy 14y ago
I thought it was a hired comedian, not a representative of Dell. Of course it was still a very bad choice.
rurounijones 14y ago
Devil's advocate: "I am a famous comedian well known for humour type X; Dell hired me to MC their event knowing this; which is at least tacit approval of my routine. Otherwise they obviously wouldn't have hired me" If you have to hire someone and tell them not to use their trademark humour then why are you hiring them in the first place?
- daeken 14y ago
  I don't think anyone is saying that the comedian didn't have the right to say what he did, or even that he shouldn't have said it. The lapse in judgement is on Dell, not on the comedian.
- AndrewDucker 14y ago
  Absolutely. I don't blame the comedian for the situation - he was carrying out his job. I blame the people who booked someone without checking they were appropriate.
- Deestan 14y ago
  Yes, that's the point. Dell are the ones to blame for putting that guy on stage, and they are getting the criticism. MC, however despicable, just did his thing as advertised.
  - sp332 14y ago
    I don't think "Dell" deserves the blame. I think whoever booked this guy is to blame.
    - anotherthrow 14y ago
      That would be a representative of Dell, acting on behalf of Dell, arranging for payment to be made by Dell.
      - sp332 14y ago
        And hopefully punished or even fired by Dell, because they're not representing Dell very well.
Indyan 14y ago
But was he a representative of Dell? If you hire a comedian, then does it become his responsibility to stick to your sensibilities? The onus should be on Dell and not on the comedian. Moreover, since when are we supposed to interpret what a comedian says so literally? The comment that seems to be most offensive is "Thank god there's so few women in this business, keep up the good work!" Taken sarcastically, that very statement would become an indictment of the tech industry for failing to maintain a gender balance. I am certain that if the same line had come from a lady, no one would have found it offensive. Now, I am not saying that the comedian in question isn't misogynist. I know nothing about his personality. I am simply trying to play the devil's advocate. I just want to highlight that context and intention matter. Otherwise, Russel Peters would be in jail by now. Also, why I am being downvoted to oblivion for raising a pretty reasonable point of discussion? In my mind, downvotes shouldn't be used as a tool for censorship, or to restrict discussion. It should be used for quality control more than anything else.
- jbri 14y ago
  > I am certain that if the same line had come from a lady, no one would have found it offensive. Well yes, because context matters. When you have a power disparity, comedy only goes one way - if a member of a majority group makes disparaging remarks about a minority group, that's not funny, it's straight-up bigotry.
  - roopeshv 14y ago
    so anyone can make a joke about asian guys, you know because there are over a billion them in this world
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Don't try to interpret this logically. Interpret it as a weird expression of American culture. In the US, we consider racism/sexism to be the worst thing ever. Compare to female promiscuity in India, or perhaps being disloyal to your family (I'm guessing from your username that you might be from India). For example, when I was working in India, I mentioned that my friend's babymomma (the mother of his child, to whom he was not married) was visiting me. The ladies in the office gave me a rather shocked and horrified reaction. In the US, you'd get the same reaction if you made a joke about Gujus. My suggestion is that if you are in the US, play along with it and just accept it as a weird Americanism. In much the same way, Indians constantly asking me about my family is just a funny cultural thing I play along with.

Lewton 14y ago

His jokes were along the lines of "Thank god there's so few women in this business, keep up the good work!" It's hard to see when that would ever be acceptable

kzrdude 14y ago

Check this HN story 2 days ago, for an account from the audience: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3965084 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3965084

polemic 14y ago

So what you mean is: "Lighten Up"? http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/

Tichy 14y ago
He is a comedian. It's difficult to judge his show because I think he is danish or something, so no idea if he is really anti-women or in fact making parodies of that stance. I don't think the cause of women would be served if pointing to the problem would not be allowed anymore. In fact that has traditionally been the role of comedians, to say the things others dare not or may not say. Again, I can not really judge his performance, as I don't know it, so I certainly don't want to defend him. Just adding a word of caution to not judge rashly.
- dagw 14y ago
  He's not a comedian. He's an author, motivational speaker and media pundit with a long history of making misogynistic statements, who also does the occasional stand up show at events.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    That wasn't obvious from the article, thanks for clarifying. I guess he (deservedly) isn't well known outside of Denmark...
stfu 14y ago
Is the "Lighten Up" posting becoming some sort of a meme now? This is the 3rd time it is posted in this discussion...

liedra 14y ago

This was theoretically a professional partner event. You wouldn't get a comedian on stage cracking racist jokes at those, so why should sexist jokes be acceptable? Perhaps you should actually read the original report by the Danish blogger: http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/ http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male... Then, perhaps, you should put yourself in women-in-tech's shoes and ask yourself why this might be offensive. We're a small minority which is, on the one hand, desperately in need of encouragement, yet, on the other hand, continually set back by the sexist, intimidating attitudes of some men in the industry. For some other examples you might want to see http://programmersbeingdicks.tumblr.com/ http://programmersbeingdicks.tumblr.com/

mark_integerdsv 14y ago
That tumblr link is a blinding endichtment on everything you seem to stand for. Can you see this? Can you see that the mountains of scorn you heap on 'men in tech' represent the very landscape of sexism you rail against? As a 'male in tech' and a husband, and a son, and a father of two girls... as a friend and a collegue or as a boss, this shit has moved from mildly aggravating to outright hurtful. Women in tech: it's not all men. It's some men, don't sink to their level, please lead by example instead.
- calibraxis 14y ago
  Well, as a male, I'm absolutely fine with that site! The problem of sexism is patriarchy. (Why's the software industry hyper-male? And if you're from the US, ever wonder why every single president has been male? One of those funny coincidences?) It's not just some bad male apples. I'm fine saying that I'm a privileged sexist male, because I've lived all my life in societies with bizarre preoccupations with gender roles, where one gender dominates the other.
- liedra 14y ago
  I didn't say it was "all men". I said, deliberately, "some men". I know of many, very supportive, men in technology, who understand what it is to get this stuff right. It's a real shame that there are some who wilfully ignore the issue's existence, or who exacerbate it, or who think that women should just "lighten up" about it. As a man in technology, you come with a whole heap of privilege, you need to understand what it's like from the other side. That tumblr rightly calls out people in tech who are dicks, particularly to women. Without sites like this, people might continue thinking that this sort of behaviour is acceptable.

dagw 14y ago

The guy in question isn't really a comedian, but a self-help author, motivational speaker and general loud obnoxious media personality. Of course it's often hard to separate the media persona from the 'real' person, but based on his body of work there is no evidence to assume to he doesn't genuinely believe in the views he presents, even if he does use hyperbole to present them. Basically given whom we're dealing with, and his long history of misogynistic commentary, there is no reason to assume the comments where purely in good humor.

peteretep 14y ago

> If comedians are allowed to crack nigger jokes and my fat momma jokes, then why can't they crack shut up bitch jokes? If a comedian at a Dell event had used the word 'nigger' in almost any joke context, someone would have been fired.