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Nokia Tells Reddit It Infringes Some Patents in Lead-Up to IPO

77 points by thm 3y ago

kingkongjaffa 3y ago
[flagged]
- AlienRobot 3y ago
  What if you patented paywalls then sued sites that implemented paywalls?
  - polonbike 3y ago
    But Nokia already owns it on mobile !
skilled 3y ago
https://archive.is/sMAqp https://archive.is/sMAqp (Bloomberg) Also, from The Verge: > In an amended SEC filing ahead of its IPO, Reddit warned potential investors that "...on March 18, 2024, Nokia Technologies sent us a letter indicating they believed that Reddit infringes certain of their patents. We will evaluate their claims." https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/19/24105658/nokia-tells-reddit-it-might-be-infringing-on-nokias-patents https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/19/24105658/nokia-tells-redd...
DannyBee 3y ago
I mean you can replace "reddit" with anyone and it's still true. Nokia has sued Apple, Amazon, Google, HP, ... It has certainly threatened many more. It's probably easier at this point to list the companies they aren't doing this to.
- hello_kitty2 3y ago
  > Apple, Amazon, Google, HP I can understand why Nokia might have sued these companies because all of them make phones/hardware and there could even be legitimate patent infringements. I am confused why they sued Reddit though. They don't make any hardware.
  - Kye 3y ago
    Why would that matter? You don't need to make anything to get a patent.
    - CoastalCoder 3y ago
      > Why would that matter? You don't need to make anything to get a patent. This touches on something I never understood about people's take on patent non-practicing entities (NPEs). IMO the fundamental problem is that the patent system grants patents that are too broad, insufficiently innovative, and for too long of a duration. But I never understood the complaint about patent assertions by parties that don't use the patents themselves. It strikes me as analogous to demanding that authors only get copyright on works that they self-publish.
      - unethical_ban 3y ago
        Well, there aren't hundreds or thousands of authors writing autogenerated stories with as many names and plot elements as possible, then using anyone who uses the name "john" or a plot twist in their own creations. In other words, the trolling issue is not occurring in book writing as it appears to in patenting. Oh, and you do see people here criticizing the length of copyright protection in the US.
        lupire 3y ago
        Copyright applies to the subjective holistic work as a whole, whereas patents are written for explicitly described elements. You don't copyright "John". Also, most generic aspects of art have prior as art from long before the USA was invented and any copyrights were granted. Technology changes far more quickly than art. And when art is valuable, it does get copyright suits. And copyright term is 10x as long as parent term.
      - wormius 3y ago
        The stated aim of copyright/patents in the US Constitution (Art 1, Sec 8) is: "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;" It seems to me that sitting on a perfectly good patent and not using it is precisely the opposite effect of the stated aims of copyright/patents. Yet this is the system we have. Would love to see the supposed "originalists" try to find a way to justify the current system with the language literally IN the constitution.
- tzs 3y ago
  Here's a diagram [1] I made several years ago (the date on the file is 2010 but it may be from even earlier) showing who was suing whom. The arrows are from plaintiffs to defendants. Nokia was the biggest source of outgoing arrows. [1] https://imgur.com/a/0nn7e1e https://imgur.com/a/0nn7e1e
pavlov 3y ago
Nokia has so many patents from the early 2000s, maybe they own the patent for shitposting-but-on-mobile and just found it in the archives. ”Method and Mechanism for Asynchronously Pushing People’s Buttons on a Packet-Switched Mobile Network”
- dougSF70 3y ago
  *System* or Method and Mechanism for Asynchronously Pushing People’s Buttons on a Packet-Switched Mobile Network
davidw 3y ago
"A method for shaking down companies about to IPO by surprising them with some claim in the hopes that the company will pay to make the problem go away without fighting the claim"
- soneil 3y ago
  Sure does feel like that, doesn't it. "That's a nice IPO you have there, it'd be a shame if anything happened to it."
- nickburns 3y ago
  colorable claims of law are colorable claims of law. let's not be dramatic. both parties will expend to work it out, and if either does so beyond their ultimate legal obligation, they'll be entitled to pursue a remedy for it under that colorable claim.
  - davidw 3y ago
    And it just happened that they found this thing right before the IPO. I don't buy it.
    - nickburns 3y ago
      you know how when you file for bankruptcy, you're legally required to notice (an artful term) any/all potential creditors that, if they believe they hold a legitimate debt, it could potentially be extinguished by the pending bankruptcy declaration without their claim ever having an opportunity to be heard (another artful term that goes hand-in-hand with 'notice')? same thing when you die and your estate is settled? well this is like that, and its timeliness is actually the point. this is the process for which the IPO holders signed up. and at least part of its legal justfication is to not have entities offer ownership up to the public, with which ownership shares undisclosed/unknown debts, liabilities, or obligations could follow. it's certainly not a conspiracy.
suddenclarity 3y ago
Not much details in the original source: > Additionally, companies in the technology industry own large numbers of patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets and frequently enter into litigation based on allegations of infringement or other violations of intellectual property rights. For example, on March 18, 2024, Nokia Technologies sent us a letter indicating they believed that Reddit infringes certain of their patents. We will evaluate their claims. As we face increasing competition and become increasingly high profile, the possibility of receiving more intellectual property claims against us grows. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1713445/000162828024011789/reddit-sx1a3.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1713445/000162828024...
lifestyleguru 3y ago
What a beautiful dumpster fire.
bovermyer 3y ago
Can someone explain to me why patents are more helpful than harmful to society? With stuff like this, it seems the reverse is true, but I might just be ignorant of how things work.
- inanutshellus 3y ago
  They're supposed to help small innovators get protection from the big guys when they invent something new, and then they're supposed to expire expediently so that they don't stifle innovation. ... but ... Seems like that isn't their main use anymore.
  - master-lincoln 3y ago
    Is it correct to assume most patents that are still in use and not expired are owned or licensed by big players?
- gentleman11 3y ago
  Imagine that you graduate university with some cool tech ideas. You develop a prototype and want to start building a business around it. You file a patent, hoping it will protect you long enough to get your company off the ground -- often a 7 year mission. Does it? Not necessarily, but it is nice, in theory anyway, to think that big tech can't just rip off your idea at scale the first time somebody sees it In practice, my understanding is that you can't really afford to enforce your patent without a big legal team, and even then, the cost can sink your fledgling company I think the real problem is the cost of accessing and navigating the legal system (including: the cost of invalidating bogus patents)
  - Retric 3y ago
    There’s many ways of enforcing a patent, selling the claim to a patent troll is one way to cost your opponent quite a lot of money. Getting reasonable licensing terms doesn’t require you to be able to win a case just cost them significantly more money if they don’t.
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ksec 3y ago
One can argue there many be legitimate patents with Networks, both wired and wireless. As well as with Video Codec and ( possibly ) Video Streaming. Something at least Nokia contributed a little very long time ago. And many others things from Audio to even Power management. But Reddit doesn't do any of that. Reddit does nothing novel, both Technological or as a business. Nokia might as well sue every single web site on planet earth. I am generally more tolerant of patents than most of HN. It is not an all evil system. But I think this definitely crosses the line that may require a full on, all out war against Nokia.
sonicanatidae 3y ago
I think this is the very first time that I've ever cheered for a patent troll.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  Maybe not cheer for them, but I’m having trouble getting mad about it tbh
IronWolve 3y ago
A engineer at my work tweaked a web irc client to work on the nokia candybar for fun during the cdpd (pre 2g) days. My first 3G test phone was a nokia brick that could also act as a heater. Fun times.

77 points by thm 3y ago

kingkongjaffa 3y ago

[flagged]

AlienRobot 3y ago
What if you patented paywalls then sued sites that implemented paywalls?
- polonbike 3y ago
  But Nokia already owns it on mobile !

skilled 3y ago

https://archive.is/sMAqp https://archive.is/sMAqp (Bloomberg) Also, from The Verge: > In an amended SEC filing ahead of its IPO, Reddit warned potential investors that "...on March 18, 2024, Nokia Technologies sent us a letter indicating they believed that Reddit infringes certain of their patents. We will evaluate their claims." https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/19/24105658/nokia-tells-reddit-it-might-be-infringing-on-nokias-patents https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/19/24105658/nokia-tells-redd...

DannyBee 3y ago

I mean you can replace "reddit" with anyone and it's still true. Nokia has sued Apple, Amazon, Google, HP, ... It has certainly threatened many more. It's probably easier at this point to list the companies they aren't doing this to.

hello_kitty2 3y ago
> Apple, Amazon, Google, HP I can understand why Nokia might have sued these companies because all of them make phones/hardware and there could even be legitimate patent infringements. I am confused why they sued Reddit though. They don't make any hardware.
- Kye 3y ago
  Why would that matter? You don't need to make anything to get a patent.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    > Why would that matter? You don't need to make anything to get a patent. This touches on something I never understood about people's take on patent non-practicing entities (NPEs). IMO the fundamental problem is that the patent system grants patents that are too broad, insufficiently innovative, and for too long of a duration. But I never understood the complaint about patent assertions by parties that don't use the patents themselves. It strikes me as analogous to demanding that authors only get copyright on works that they self-publish.
    - unethical_ban 3y ago
      Well, there aren't hundreds or thousands of authors writing autogenerated stories with as many names and plot elements as possible, then using anyone who uses the name "john" or a plot twist in their own creations. In other words, the trolling issue is not occurring in book writing as it appears to in patenting. Oh, and you do see people here criticizing the length of copyright protection in the US.
      - lupire 3y ago
        Copyright applies to the subjective holistic work as a whole, whereas patents are written for explicitly described elements. You don't copyright "John". Also, most generic aspects of art have prior as art from long before the USA was invented and any copyrights were granted. Technology changes far more quickly than art. And when art is valuable, it does get copyright suits. And copyright term is 10x as long as parent term.
    - wormius 3y ago
      The stated aim of copyright/patents in the US Constitution (Art 1, Sec 8) is: "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;" It seems to me that sitting on a perfectly good patent and not using it is precisely the opposite effect of the stated aims of copyright/patents. Yet this is the system we have. Would love to see the supposed "originalists" try to find a way to justify the current system with the language literally IN the constitution.
tzs 3y ago
Here's a diagram [1] I made several years ago (the date on the file is 2010 but it may be from even earlier) showing who was suing whom. The arrows are from plaintiffs to defendants. Nokia was the biggest source of outgoing arrows. [1] https://imgur.com/a/0nn7e1e https://imgur.com/a/0nn7e1e

pavlov 3y ago

Nokia has so many patents from the early 2000s, maybe they own the patent for shitposting-but-on-mobile and just found it in the archives. ”Method and Mechanism for Asynchronously Pushing People’s Buttons on a Packet-Switched Mobile Network”

dougSF70 3y ago
*System* or Method and Mechanism for Asynchronously Pushing People’s Buttons on a Packet-Switched Mobile Network

davidw 3y ago

"A method for shaking down companies about to IPO by surprising them with some claim in the hopes that the company will pay to make the problem go away without fighting the claim"

soneil 3y ago
Sure does feel like that, doesn't it. "That's a nice IPO you have there, it'd be a shame if anything happened to it."
nickburns 3y ago
colorable claims of law are colorable claims of law. let's not be dramatic. both parties will expend to work it out, and if either does so beyond their ultimate legal obligation, they'll be entitled to pursue a remedy for it under that colorable claim.
- davidw 3y ago
  And it just happened that they found this thing right before the IPO. I don't buy it.
  - nickburns 3y ago
    you know how when you file for bankruptcy, you're legally required to notice (an artful term) any/all potential creditors that, if they believe they hold a legitimate debt, it could potentially be extinguished by the pending bankruptcy declaration without their claim ever having an opportunity to be heard (another artful term that goes hand-in-hand with 'notice')? same thing when you die and your estate is settled? well this is like that, and its timeliness is actually the point. this is the process for which the IPO holders signed up. and at least part of its legal justfication is to not have entities offer ownership up to the public, with which ownership shares undisclosed/unknown debts, liabilities, or obligations could follow. it's certainly not a conspiracy.

suddenclarity 3y ago

Not much details in the original source: > Additionally, companies in the technology industry own large numbers of patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets and frequently enter into litigation based on allegations of infringement or other violations of intellectual property rights. For example, on March 18, 2024, Nokia Technologies sent us a letter indicating they believed that Reddit infringes certain of their patents. We will evaluate their claims. As we face increasing competition and become increasingly high profile, the possibility of receiving more intellectual property claims against us grows. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1713445/000162828024011789/reddit-sx1a3.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1713445/000162828024...

lifestyleguru 3y ago

What a beautiful dumpster fire.

bovermyer 3y ago

Can someone explain to me why patents are more helpful than harmful to society? With stuff like this, it seems the reverse is true, but I might just be ignorant of how things work.

inanutshellus 3y ago
They're supposed to help small innovators get protection from the big guys when they invent something new, and then they're supposed to expire expediently so that they don't stifle innovation. ... but ... Seems like that isn't their main use anymore.
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  Is it correct to assume most patents that are still in use and not expired are owned or licensed by big players?
gentleman11 3y ago
Imagine that you graduate university with some cool tech ideas. You develop a prototype and want to start building a business around it. You file a patent, hoping it will protect you long enough to get your company off the ground -- often a 7 year mission. Does it? Not necessarily, but it is nice, in theory anyway, to think that big tech can't just rip off your idea at scale the first time somebody sees it In practice, my understanding is that you can't really afford to enforce your patent without a big legal team, and even then, the cost can sink your fledgling company I think the real problem is the cost of accessing and navigating the legal system (including: the cost of invalidating bogus patents)
- Retric 3y ago
  There’s many ways of enforcing a patent, selling the claim to a patent troll is one way to cost your opponent quite a lot of money. Getting reasonable licensing terms doesn’t require you to be able to win a case just cost them significantly more money if they don’t.
- 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ksec 3y ago

One can argue there many be legitimate patents with Networks, both wired and wireless. As well as with Video Codec and ( possibly ) Video Streaming. Something at least Nokia contributed a little very long time ago. And many others things from Audio to even Power management. But Reddit doesn't do any of that. Reddit does nothing novel, both Technological or as a business. Nokia might as well sue every single web site on planet earth. I am generally more tolerant of patents than most of HN. It is not an all evil system. But I think this definitely crosses the line that may require a full on, all out war against Nokia.

sonicanatidae 3y ago

I think this is the very first time that I've ever cheered for a patent troll.

meepmorp 3y ago
Maybe not cheer for them, but I’m having trouble getting mad about it tbh

IronWolve 3y ago

A engineer at my work tweaked a web irc client to work on the nokia candybar for fun during the cdpd (pre 2g) days. My first 3G test phone was a nokia brick that could also act as a heater. Fun times.