3 ms·

I’m wondering why this is, and I can think of a few potential factors (broad generalisations follow): - The US is a low trust society - European culture typic

I’m wondering why this is, and I can think of a few potential factors (broad generalisations follow): - The US is a low trust society - European culture typically places less emphasis on workplace friendships compared to the US. - As an another commenter said, the size of US cities. But also the difficulty & cost of getting around - There is something about the American demeanour that is surface-friendly, but also seems to discourage deeper/emotional connection. Whereas many European cultures can seem less smiley-friendly, but also more honest and genuine - I feel like the very strong Protestant work ethic in the US may play a factor. When productivity is so important I feel that must detract from other aspects of life (stress, free time, relocations)

keiferski 3y ago
I don’t think it’s related to the Protestant work ethic that much. After all, the loneliness problem is more of a recent phenomenon – and America used to be far more of a Protestant country. I would chalk it up more to the slow erosion of social expectations and standards, the proliferation of cell phones and social media, and the consistent push towards individualism and away from family/community values.
- NegativeLatency 3y ago
  Don’t forget the commoditization and marketization of everything that businesses can get their hands on.
  - twojobsoneboss 3y ago
    Ding ding ding
- riehwvfbk 3y ago
  I find that there is a peculiar kind of work ethic in the US (or at least in Silicon Valley), but it's something other than Protestant. It's relentlessly optimizing oneself to death. You can't just exercise, you need to be participating in some mudbeast games or run marathons or lift 5 times your body weight. You can't eat healthy, you have to religiously follow the latest fad diet and preach it while you are at it. You can't just work hard, you have to embrace hustle culture. Your kids need to be constantly exhausted from being in every sport and extracurricular you can sign them up for. Oh, and your efforts on all these axes must be quantified, tracked, and gamified. Preferably by an app you pay a subscription fee for. And if your psyche rebels against all this you need therapy and/or pills. Because otherwise you are simply not competitive. And that's the key: competitive. People don't have friends here. They have the Joneses to compete with.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    All of that definitely exists in America but I don’t agree that it’s that widespread or even a majority. Especially amongst average people in the Midwest, South, Texas, etc. What you’re talking about is more of a coastal urban cultural phenomenon, whereas the loneliness epidemic seems to be widespread.
    - riehwvfbk 3y ago
      But I think that's the point. A society can be extremely individualistic or more collectivist. Loneliness is an affliction of individualistic societies. And of course there is a spectrum to this. A common refrain heard in Russia when it switched from Communism to Capitalism back in the 1990s was that people stopped talking to their neighbors. Before the switch everyone was equally poor so there was no envy. There was little pressure to work hard, so people had more time to socialize. The change was abrupt enough that everyone noticed.
      - keiferski 3y ago
        But the loneliness issue is more of a recent phenomenon. In the past, Americans worked even more hours - but they had more social interaction and less family fragmentation at work and home. I think you could blame the loneliness issue on excessive individualism, but I wouldn’t blame it on competitive, hard-working culture. Especially because there are many places in the US which absolutely do not have a competitive culture yet still suffer from loneliness.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        Those places have that "frontier spirit", "trespassers will be shot again" signs, and houses that are at least a mile apart. I think they are self-selecting for people who like loneliness.
  - lispisok 3y ago
    I noticed the same thing but found it was affluent millenials (maybe gen z now) who were really into it.
listenallyall 3y ago
How about, in the U.S. you can move 2000-3000 miles away from your family and friends but still be within the same country, and therefore, many people do.
em-bee 3y ago
European cultures can seem less smiley-friendly, but also more honest and genuine we had this discussion a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39006092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39006092 as a european i strongly prefer the the american approach. which btw is also found elsewhere in the world. as an individual who has difficulty making friends i need a lot of opportunity to interact with others before that happens. and a surface-friendly culture just makes that a lot easier. "fake it until you make it" somehow strangely fits here. it helps keep every day interactions friendly, and allows probing for deeper connections. i lived in the US two decades ago. maybe something changed in that time that i am not aware of.
m463 3y ago
It think european city design is more nuanced for good social life - for example cities are more walkable, and frequently there are businesses at street level with living spaces above for several stories. Meanwhile america has suburbs for isolation/privacy, lots of driving and strip malls for business.

keiferski 3y ago

I don’t think it’s related to the Protestant work ethic that much. After all, the loneliness problem is more of a recent phenomenon – and America used to be far more of a Protestant country. I would chalk it up more to the slow erosion of social expectations and standards, the proliferation of cell phones and social media, and the consistent push towards individualism and away from family/community values.

NegativeLatency 3y ago
Don’t forget the commoditization and marketization of everything that businesses can get their hands on.
- twojobsoneboss 3y ago
  Ding ding ding
riehwvfbk 3y ago
I find that there is a peculiar kind of work ethic in the US (or at least in Silicon Valley), but it's something other than Protestant. It's relentlessly optimizing oneself to death. You can't just exercise, you need to be participating in some mudbeast games or run marathons or lift 5 times your body weight. You can't eat healthy, you have to religiously follow the latest fad diet and preach it while you are at it. You can't just work hard, you have to embrace hustle culture. Your kids need to be constantly exhausted from being in every sport and extracurricular you can sign them up for. Oh, and your efforts on all these axes must be quantified, tracked, and gamified. Preferably by an app you pay a subscription fee for. And if your psyche rebels against all this you need therapy and/or pills. Because otherwise you are simply not competitive. And that's the key: competitive. People don't have friends here. They have the Joneses to compete with.
- keiferski 3y ago
  All of that definitely exists in America but I don’t agree that it’s that widespread or even a majority. Especially amongst average people in the Midwest, South, Texas, etc. What you’re talking about is more of a coastal urban cultural phenomenon, whereas the loneliness epidemic seems to be widespread.
  - riehwvfbk 3y ago
    But I think that's the point. A society can be extremely individualistic or more collectivist. Loneliness is an affliction of individualistic societies. And of course there is a spectrum to this. A common refrain heard in Russia when it switched from Communism to Capitalism back in the 1990s was that people stopped talking to their neighbors. Before the switch everyone was equally poor so there was no envy. There was little pressure to work hard, so people had more time to socialize. The change was abrupt enough that everyone noticed.
    - keiferski 3y ago
      But the loneliness issue is more of a recent phenomenon. In the past, Americans worked even more hours - but they had more social interaction and less family fragmentation at work and home. I think you could blame the loneliness issue on excessive individualism, but I wouldn’t blame it on competitive, hard-working culture. Especially because there are many places in the US which absolutely do not have a competitive culture yet still suffer from loneliness.
      - riehwvfbk 3y ago
        Those places have that "frontier spirit", "trespassers will be shot again" signs, and houses that are at least a mile apart. I think they are self-selecting for people who like loneliness.
- lispisok 3y ago
  I noticed the same thing but found it was affluent millenials (maybe gen z now) who were really into it.

listenallyall 3y ago

How about, in the U.S. you can move 2000-3000 miles away from your family and friends but still be within the same country, and therefore, many people do.

em-bee 3y ago

European cultures can seem less smiley-friendly, but also more honest and genuine we had this discussion a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39006092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39006092 as a european i strongly prefer the the american approach. which btw is also found elsewhere in the world. as an individual who has difficulty making friends i need a lot of opportunity to interact with others before that happens. and a surface-friendly culture just makes that a lot easier. "fake it until you make it" somehow strangely fits here. it helps keep every day interactions friendly, and allows probing for deeper connections. i lived in the US two decades ago. maybe something changed in that time that i am not aware of.

m463 3y ago

It think european city design is more nuanced for good social life - for example cities are more walkable, and frequently there are businesses at street level with living spaces above for several stories. Meanwhile america has suburbs for isolation/privacy, lots of driving and strip malls for business.