4 ms·

Mesothelioma from household exposure is very rare, nearly all cases come from industrial exposure, involving chronic exposure to concentrations of airborne part

by zachmu 3y ago

Mesothelioma from household exposure is very rare, nearly all cases come from industrial exposure, involving chronic exposure to concentrations of airborne particles millions of times higher than you would ever find in a residential setting, even during a renovation that disturbs asbestos. I looked into this when I discovered some old asbestos paper in my basement that I had abated by professionals (which I always recommend). I was freaking out about my family being exposed to the fibers for years before that, so I went digging for hard numbers. To my surprise, there is almost zero good quantitative data on the risk of mesothelioma from residential asbestos exposure. The best info we have suggests about a doubling of the risk of MM from residential exposure, from about 1 per million person-years to 2.5 per million person years: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(17)30200-1/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... > However, the chief interest from this study will be in the more than doubling of risk of mesothelioma in men who had lived in an affected house, compared with unexposed males (SIR 2·54, 95% CI 1·02–5·24). ... The background incidence of mesothelioma without exposure to asbestos is very low (highly age-dependent and roughly one case per million person-years), so any rise would be indicative of previous asbestos exposure Other studies indicate that home renovations that disturb asbestos could increase the risk by about a factor of 5 from baseline, which sounds high until you realize that it means about 5 per million person-years. The base rate is very low! And there is no such thing as zero exposure to asbestos: there are a couple fibers, on average, in every liter of air you breathe. Everybody is constantly exposed to a very small amount of these fibers, and it's not the case that it gives everybody MM: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7721955/#:~:text=The%20standard%20asbestos%20concentration%20in,)%20%5B12%2C%2013%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7721955/#:~:tex.... So the bottom line is: get your asbestos abated by professionals, but don't freak out if you have been living with the stuff. It's not the same as being an asbestos miner, your risk is higher but still very low.

hanniabu 3y ago
> Mesothelioma from household exposure is very rare > To my surprise, there is almost zero good quantitative data on the risk of mesothelioma from residential asbestos exposure Love it when comments state something so confidently, yet contradict themselves a few sentences later
- zachmu 3y ago
  There is no contradiction there
  - leke 3y ago
    There isn't?
    - zachmu 3y ago
      Rare but difficult to precisely quantify. We know the rate of mesothelioma in people with no known occupational exposure, but we have very little quantitative data about how much a given amount of asbestos exposure might increase one's risk. The disease takes decades to develop after exposure.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      Deducing that something is rare from limited evidence is really easy. If there is no good evidence regarding something, that default position should be that the thing is rare.
      - 2devnull 3y ago
        There’s a handy cliche: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In concrete terms a zero is different from a missing value.
        roenxi 3y ago
        The cliche is wrong. The absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Not conclusive evidence. There are an infinite number of things that don't exist and that we don't have any evidence of. It is nice if we can positively disprove them, but that is not necessary to justify disbelief.
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      I think the point that are trying to make is that if it was more common, it would be noticeable and more quantifiable. Otherwise, most of the cases seems to have been tracked to industrial exposure.
pcchristie 3y ago
This is really interesting, thanks.
ro-ka 3y ago
My parents house (in the EU) was covered in plates of asbestos. As far as I know it only is dangerous when you install / remove it as these plates break and release chemicals to the air. I’m no expert though.
- sdwr 3y ago
  I believe the interaction with asbestos is material, not chemical. It breaks into tiny shards that are light enough to breathe, and sharp enough to cut up your lungs. Which is why a single exposure will damage your lungs, but it takes lots of cycles of damage and repair to chance into getting cancer.
HdS84 3y ago
While true, domestic use is super problematic and balloons any bill. E.g. our house in germany is from 1968. We where lucky and the builder did not use any asbestos so I could do most renovations myself. If you have asbestos, you need specialized equipment and procedures or involve experts. That is really expensive and can easily double or triple your estimated cost. You can ofc ignore it, but especially with small children it seems ill advised to do so. NTM there are fines if you expose the public.
- speleding 3y ago
  If you involve a specialised removal firm it's super expensive and stalls your project by weeks. I was advised by the builder I could just remove a few plates of asbestos myself, about half a day of work, most of which was spent getting the right plastic bags and then driving them to the correct dump, the actual removal of the asbestos plates took minutes. Used mask etc, but really a single exposure was a very acceptable risk for me to save on cost and time. (There's different types of asbestos, some more dangerous than others, so you should do a bit of research into what you're doing)
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  Meanwhile in America I am allowed to self-remove asbestos as a homeowner no verifications required. Whereas a commercial builder is required to have certifications. Another “fun fact,” when the asbestos ban went into place builders were still allowed to use any remaining stock they held in their warehouses. No new product could be purchased. So homes could still be built years later with a now banned substance. Fascinating bit of law there.
- Sander_Marechal 3y ago
  In The Netherlands you can remove asbestos yourself and bring it to the local trash collection and recycling center for free. You do have to get a permit (free, but takes a few days) and follow some simple guidelines for handling and packaging. But, this applies only to private homeowners. In my case, my house had a facade made of aluminium frames with prefab slabs slotted in. The slabs had a layer of asbestos on the inside. I just slotted the slabs out, packaged them in two layers of plastic and took them to the recycling center.
gwbas1c 3y ago
> nearly all cases come from industrial exposure That is how my grandfather got mesothelioma. He insulated ships in WWII and didn't have proper protection. He had a rather painful last year of his life. At this point, I would only allow asbestos when there are no safer alternatives. I didn't know if any cases where asbestos is the only practical option.
riverdroid 3y ago
While most mesothelioma (a rare cancer) is known to be caused by asbestos and not other agents, asbestos is known to cause other cancers of the lung, larynx, and ovary, with limited evidence of some other cancers as well. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/asbestos/asbestos-fact-sheet#r8 https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/s... These are more common cancers, and not usually possible to map to a precise cause when they occur.

by zachmu 3y ago

hanniabu 3y ago

> Mesothelioma from household exposure is very rare > To my surprise, there is almost zero good quantitative data on the risk of mesothelioma from residential asbestos exposure Love it when comments state something so confidently, yet contradict themselves a few sentences later

zachmu 3y ago
There is no contradiction there
- leke 3y ago
  There isn't?
  - zachmu 3y ago
    Rare but difficult to precisely quantify. We know the rate of mesothelioma in people with no known occupational exposure, but we have very little quantitative data about how much a given amount of asbestos exposure might increase one's risk. The disease takes decades to develop after exposure.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Deducing that something is rare from limited evidence is really easy. If there is no good evidence regarding something, that default position should be that the thing is rare.
    - 2devnull 3y ago
      There’s a handy cliche: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In concrete terms a zero is different from a missing value.
      - roenxi 3y ago
        The cliche is wrong. The absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Not conclusive evidence. There are an infinite number of things that don't exist and that we don't have any evidence of. It is nice if we can positively disprove them, but that is not necessary to justify disbelief.
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    I think the point that are trying to make is that if it was more common, it would be noticeable and more quantifiable. Otherwise, most of the cases seems to have been tracked to industrial exposure.

pcchristie 3y ago

This is really interesting, thanks.

ro-ka 3y ago

My parents house (in the EU) was covered in plates of asbestos. As far as I know it only is dangerous when you install / remove it as these plates break and release chemicals to the air. I’m no expert though.

sdwr 3y ago
I believe the interaction with asbestos is material, not chemical. It breaks into tiny shards that are light enough to breathe, and sharp enough to cut up your lungs. Which is why a single exposure will damage your lungs, but it takes lots of cycles of damage and repair to chance into getting cancer.

HdS84 3y ago

While true, domestic use is super problematic and balloons any bill. E.g. our house in germany is from 1968. We where lucky and the builder did not use any asbestos so I could do most renovations myself. If you have asbestos, you need specialized equipment and procedures or involve experts. That is really expensive and can easily double or triple your estimated cost. You can ofc ignore it, but especially with small children it seems ill advised to do so. NTM there are fines if you expose the public.

speleding 3y ago
If you involve a specialised removal firm it's super expensive and stalls your project by weeks. I was advised by the builder I could just remove a few plates of asbestos myself, about half a day of work, most of which was spent getting the right plastic bags and then driving them to the correct dump, the actual removal of the asbestos plates took minutes. Used mask etc, but really a single exposure was a very acceptable risk for me to save on cost and time. (There's different types of asbestos, some more dangerous than others, so you should do a bit of research into what you're doing)
wizerdrobe 3y ago
Meanwhile in America I am allowed to self-remove asbestos as a homeowner no verifications required. Whereas a commercial builder is required to have certifications. Another “fun fact,” when the asbestos ban went into place builders were still allowed to use any remaining stock they held in their warehouses. No new product could be purchased. So homes could still be built years later with a now banned substance. Fascinating bit of law there.
Sander_Marechal 3y ago
In The Netherlands you can remove asbestos yourself and bring it to the local trash collection and recycling center for free. You do have to get a permit (free, but takes a few days) and follow some simple guidelines for handling and packaging. But, this applies only to private homeowners. In my case, my house had a facade made of aluminium frames with prefab slabs slotted in. The slabs had a layer of asbestos on the inside. I just slotted the slabs out, packaged them in two layers of plastic and took them to the recycling center.

gwbas1c 3y ago

> nearly all cases come from industrial exposure That is how my grandfather got mesothelioma. He insulated ships in WWII and didn't have proper protection. He had a rather painful last year of his life. At this point, I would only allow asbestos when there are no safer alternatives. I didn't know if any cases where asbestos is the only practical option.

riverdroid 3y ago

While most mesothelioma (a rare cancer) is known to be caused by asbestos and not other agents, asbestos is known to cause other cancers of the lung, larynx, and ovary, with limited evidence of some other cancers as well. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/substances/asbestos/asbestos-fact-sheet#r8 https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/s... These are more common cancers, and not usually possible to map to a precise cause when they occur.