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You know, you choose to be this bitter and critical. That's a choice. I decided I wanted to be less angry at the people around me, to be somebody who didn't re

by Sakos 3y ago

You know, you choose to be this bitter and critical. That's a choice. I decided I wanted to be less angry at the people around me, to be somebody who didn't respond with anger unnecessarily. I wanted to be somebody better able to handle criticism. I wanted to be more emotionally/psychologically stable, and be less co-dependent in my relationships. I wanted to get over my social anxiety and become more comfortable around other people. I wanted to finally start a career in software development for money and stability. These are all things I've achieved to a large degree, and it's made a huge difference in my quality of life. Yes, I have other goals now, but does that negate the value in achieving my previous goals? No. Achieving my previous goals means that I'm in a better place now to achieve other goals that can further improve my life.

starbugs 3y ago
> You know, you choose to be this bitter and critical. That's a choice. Respectfully, I think that's your interpretation rather than reality. What I said is far from bitter or critical. Quite the opposite. Maybe it's your own bitterness that's coming through in what you read in my comment? What you describe in your habitual changes are not ends - those are means. And you always change them now by letting go of some self concept. It's quite the opposite of imagining yourself being so and so in the future and then everything "will be fine". But I asked "To what end?" and talked about something completely different than you are, obviously? Please re-read what I wrote.
- lupyro 3y ago
  Nah based off this comment and your previous one, you're choosing to be bitter and critical. It's not the content of your argument but how you're saying it.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > It's not the content of your argument but how you're saying it. Sounds quite bitter to me.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  For what it is worth, as an outside observer, I think your position comes of as nihilistic or stoic. It seemed to suggest or question the point of improvement, betterment, or desires entirely. >to what end? Oftentimes, that tale goes like: "If I do this, I can get more money." Or: "If I do that, I can get a better partner." Once you get what you wanted, it's no longer what you actually want. One solution has caused ten more problems and you never feel any better really, other than for very short fleeting moments.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > It seemed to suggest or question the point of improvement, betterment, or desires entirely. That says a lot about why I made that comment to begin with. It’s this way of jumping to conclusions and feeling attacked that seems to be quite deeply conditioned in many of us. Hence, I admit my comment was kind of provocative. To clarify: By no means did I want to indicate that betterment and improvement aren’t worthwhile endeavors generally speaking. My point is rather that they should be embedded in something greater. Otherwise, they might yield counterintuitive results which can, in extreme cases, become dangerous. To support my point: Look at what’s currently considered “successful” in our contemporary society. Then look at its detrimental effects which become more and more pronounced in many areas. A bit more balance would be desirable at times. A lot of this stems from the deeply entrenched believe in a false conceptual self. At least that’s what I am convinced of. That’s why I made that comment in the context of this article.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Thats a fair point, and I agree some people are primed to be defensive- perhaps rightly so. It seems quite common for people make broad cynical assessments of society and others, and then make exceptions, opposite to the opposite. Part of this is a human inclination to focus on problems that need fixing, and forget what is working well. As an example, my initial gut inclination is to agree with your condemnation of social definitions of successes (materialistic, commercial, ect). However, when I slow down question it, I don't think it actually matches my personal experience of society. I certainly don't think it is true for myself, my friends, neighbors, and acquaintances, who mostly have views I find much more attractive (e.g. they all think success is living a life of integrity, thoughtfulness, happiness, and love). Maybe I have done a great job of building a bubble and my personal data is driven by selection bias. However, I am more inclined to think that something similar to the fundamental attribution error[1] is at play when making general judgements about society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error That part of your posts that I don't understand is what seems to be a hostility or cynicism around introspection in general. You say things like: >[it] actually reveals what they are really more useful for specifically: gain power without any purpose or meaning. >To what end? Oftentimes, that tale goes... This comes off (to me), as if you genuinely think these things are bad. If not, Im curious if you expect people to understand you are intentionally being provocative by steel manning a position you dont hold?

by Sakos 3y ago

starbugs 3y ago

> You know, you choose to be this bitter and critical. That's a choice. Respectfully, I think that's your interpretation rather than reality. What I said is far from bitter or critical. Quite the opposite. Maybe it's your own bitterness that's coming through in what you read in my comment? What you describe in your habitual changes are not ends - those are means. And you always change them now by letting go of some self concept. It's quite the opposite of imagining yourself being so and so in the future and then everything "will be fine". But I asked "To what end?" and talked about something completely different than you are, obviously? Please re-read what I wrote.

lupyro 3y ago
Nah based off this comment and your previous one, you're choosing to be bitter and critical. It's not the content of your argument but how you're saying it.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > It's not the content of your argument but how you're saying it. Sounds quite bitter to me.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
For what it is worth, as an outside observer, I think your position comes of as nihilistic or stoic. It seemed to suggest or question the point of improvement, betterment, or desires entirely. >to what end? Oftentimes, that tale goes like: "If I do this, I can get more money." Or: "If I do that, I can get a better partner." Once you get what you wanted, it's no longer what you actually want. One solution has caused ten more problems and you never feel any better really, other than for very short fleeting moments.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > It seemed to suggest or question the point of improvement, betterment, or desires entirely. That says a lot about why I made that comment to begin with. It’s this way of jumping to conclusions and feeling attacked that seems to be quite deeply conditioned in many of us. Hence, I admit my comment was kind of provocative. To clarify: By no means did I want to indicate that betterment and improvement aren’t worthwhile endeavors generally speaking. My point is rather that they should be embedded in something greater. Otherwise, they might yield counterintuitive results which can, in extreme cases, become dangerous. To support my point: Look at what’s currently considered “successful” in our contemporary society. Then look at its detrimental effects which become more and more pronounced in many areas. A bit more balance would be desirable at times. A lot of this stems from the deeply entrenched believe in a false conceptual self. At least that’s what I am convinced of. That’s why I made that comment in the context of this article.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Thats a fair point, and I agree some people are primed to be defensive- perhaps rightly so. It seems quite common for people make broad cynical assessments of society and others, and then make exceptions, opposite to the opposite. Part of this is a human inclination to focus on problems that need fixing, and forget what is working well. As an example, my initial gut inclination is to agree with your condemnation of social definitions of successes (materialistic, commercial, ect). However, when I slow down question it, I don't think it actually matches my personal experience of society. I certainly don't think it is true for myself, my friends, neighbors, and acquaintances, who mostly have views I find much more attractive (e.g. they all think success is living a life of integrity, thoughtfulness, happiness, and love). Maybe I have done a great job of building a bubble and my personal data is driven by selection bias. However, I am more inclined to think that something similar to the fundamental attribution error[1] is at play when making general judgements about society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error That part of your posts that I don't understand is what seems to be a hostility or cynicism around introspection in general. You say things like: >[it] actually reveals what they are really more useful for specifically: gain power without any purpose or meaning. >To what end? Oftentimes, that tale goes... This comes off (to me), as if you genuinely think these things are bad. If not, Im curious if you expect people to understand you are intentionally being provocative by steel manning a position you dont hold?