11 ms·

Car is spying on you, leading to higher insurance rates

79 points by hotdailys 3y ago

Pokerface777 3y ago
What isn't spying on you nowadays?
- sneak 3y ago
  my laptop. my camera. my non-gsm vehicle. my garage door opener. my television. my coffee machine. my fridge. my e-reader. my paper library. my turntable. my furniture. my firearms. my hand tools. my bicycle. my luggage. my stove. most of my tools aren’t spying on me. this sort of “privacy is impossible, we shouldn’t fight privacy invasions” is defeatist and toxic imho.
  - bdangubic 3y ago
    oh boy… your laptop is spying on you 24/7 unless it is in the basement disconnected from the internet. your TV is spying on you unless it is black&white :) you e-reader is spying on you. your non-gsm vehicle may not be spying on you directly but thosands or license plate readers all over the place are…
    - exe34 3y ago
      Are you sure? Or do you mean that you don't know how to stop those things? My kindle WiFi is permanently off. I use a usb cable. It stops it from downloading adverts to p*ss me off. My projector doesn't have a WiFi chip. It has an hdmi cable to my laptop. My laptop runs a pared down Linux, the only thing on it that spies on me is Google Chrome. That's a trade-off I'm comfortable with, since I use pihole to block the adverts so I don't have to see them.
      - jajko 3y ago
        Do you know what basic OS runs on your network card? Bios? Wifi router? Internet provider's whole infrastructure with built-in advanced deep packet inspection? It has been mentioned here in the past - in US there comes a guy (some 3-letter agency, probably NSA), installs new black box at ISP, and goes, nobody has a clue what that thingie does, mandated by law. That was before providers decided to just sell data themselves too (scrubbed probably, but not nearly well enough). I get you have most of the stuff covered, fine for you, but its nowhere near 100%. And literally any phone out there is like swiss cheese all the way down to wifi chip OS from ie Broadcom.
        exe34 3y ago
        What's your threat model? Are you planning to bring down the US empire? If so, why are you using IT at all? Carrier pigeons and one time pads might be the only safe method of communication in that case.
        klibertp 3y ago
        > Carrier pigeons I wonder if the NSA has a trained falcons corps for that...
        sneak 3y ago
        ISP DPI doesn’t affect me, every packet that leaves my house is wireguard.
    - sneak 3y ago
      my e-reader is not connected to a network. neither is my television. my laptop’s traffic is regularly monitored both on and off device, and i also have root on it. it’s not spying on me- i know because one actually has to check these sorts of things.
  - hnlmorg 3y ago
    > my laptop. That almost certainly is > my camera Are you sure your images aren't being tagged with location data? That's a pretty common feature these days > my non-gsm vehicle Most vehicles still record diagnostic data. Even if they don't upload it > my television How old is your TV? Any TV made in the last 5 years will be. 10+ years will still have diagnostic logs but might not upload them automatically. Also satellite / cable TV networks track users too. > my e-reader I'd be very surprised if that was true. > my paper library As in your local library which you need to present your library card to check out publications? And who know who has what checkout out and for how long? They absolutely need to track their customers otherwise people would just steal books. --- > this sort of “privacy is impossible, we shouldn’t fight privacy invasions” is defeatist and toxic imho. This much I agree with.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    Other replies have made good points I agree with, but another way of looking at this is what "spying on me" means. For example, is bookmark sync "spying"? I would say no, but many would say yes simply because that sync goes through someone else's machine. If the browser vendor uses aggregated domain popularity across bookmarks to inform their browser testing, is that now spying on me? Maybe, but the term "spying" has significant negative connotations that still don't feel justified to me. What if the browser vendor uses those bookmarks to target personalised information about browser feature improvements, is that now spying? I might find that a bit weird, but there's still an arguable user benefit there, and if that happened on device it's not really any different to most offline data analysis. "Spying" really is a wide spectrum, from things that greatly benefit users with no privacy downside, to things that greatly benefit service providers with no user benefit. It's a nuance discussion that is worth having – just because something syncs to a server doesn't mean it's not worth doing, just because something is end to end encrypted doesn't mean it's not spying on you.
    - oakpond 3y ago
      I propose focusing on the worst part: information collection on a massive scale. Even if it is not used right now by a spy. They can use what is collected at this moment against you at any point in the future.
      - danpalmer 3y ago
        This is fair, but hard to define. If you necessarily store data as part of providing a service, but don't use that data for (example) ad targeting, is that a problem? That's a service that cannot exist without data collection (examples being cloud storage), and a service that is valuable to users. Should we avoid services because of what they could do in the future? Things like the DMA are addressing this well I think. The DMA aims to prevent sharing of data for things the user did not opt in to, that are outside of the product remit. So a hypothetical cloud storage provider could not use that data for ad targeting without getting an opt in from the user, but the user can still use the storage service.
  - sebtron 3y ago
    If all of this is true, you must know very well how hard it is becoming to buy new devices that do not invade your privacy. If not, I have bad news for you...
  - Pokerface777 3y ago
    I didn't give up on privacy, but it is getting increasingly harder to achieve. BTW do you know that your car broadcast unique IDs from each of your car wheels (TPMS), and that it is pretty hard to avoid facial recognition. or that they are installing car tag readers everywhere. You are ignoring so much of the spying that is going on. What about your phone? is it connected to cellphone towers? Is WiFi enabled... what about Bluetooth?
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Just looking at the past decade I think most people would agree that what isn't spying on you, will be. Or if that's not popular how about what isn't spying on you would be if they could. (And while I'm ranting, I'm sure manufacturers would love a subscription model for the clothes I wear as well but they haven't yet figured out how to do that.)
- hagbard_c 3y ago
  What isn't spying on me is nearly everything I use which contains the type of hardware that could be used to spy on me. The reason for that is that I keep things like that locked onto their own networks without the capability to reach back to their makers. I self-host more or less all my digital needs so assuming I'm not in the crosshairs of any TLA it is unlikely that there be spies in the server-under-the-stairs. My mobile devices run free software where possible, they are Google/Microsoft/Apple/etc.- free. Of course there does remain that one pain point of the radio firmware which is a closed-source blob and as such open to anyone with the money or governmental power to spy on me. There are also the banks which track financial transactions and the public transport companies which track where I go. When I'm on my bike, motorbike or tractor they're sadly out of luck since these are all old tech without any electronics. We heat the house using a wood-burning stove, I also use one to cook on, we generate more or less all our own electricity - yes, the inverter is also blocked from the 'net so it can not tell Fronius what we're doing here in the woods - but the power meter does spy on us though its radio transponder. I have access to what is supposed to be the same data through the P1 interface, it is theoretically possible to use this data to track whether we're home and what type of equipment (resistive/conductive) we're using. This is made harder when the inverter is running but it is not impossible. So, what is spying on me? - mobile transponders - financial institutions - public transport companies - power company Who is trying to spy on me but with a bit of luck mostly thwarted from doing so - Google/Microsoft/Metafaecesbook/Apple/etc (blocked and/or blended with other user's data) - internet access provider (swamped with proxied data) Who is not spying on me? - vehicles (too old) - internet-of-things devices (blocked)
TomSwirly 3y ago
The New York Post is not a reliable source.
- tyingq 3y ago
  It seems like mostly a paraphrasing of this NYT article: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv...
- gmatejka 3y ago
  Sorry I’m unfamiliar. Why?
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    It's a tabloid that's known for colorful rather than balanced reporting.
  - zettabomb 3y ago
    It's a tabloid. Facts aren't particularly relevant to them. Basically the pre-internet equivalent of clickbait (although of course they do have an online presence now).
- occz 3y ago
  While this is true, the story is independently confirmed, so we can continue discussions on the subject anyway.
- delfinom 3y ago
  NYP is simply reposting NYTimes content. There's already a lawsuit filed against GM.
Veuxdo 3y ago
Who is Car?
tyingq 3y ago
It sounds a bit like the pre-crime angle from Minority Report. Because aggressive drivers with accidents and citations already pay higher rates. This is, I assume, penalizing aggressive driving that hasn't yet resulted in a citation or accident. Or, maybe, penalizing those that drive in riskier areas , regardless of habits? Might be interesting if someone could push for whether anyone's rates went down as a result of data sharing.
- mjbeswick 3y ago
  That's how insurance underwriting works anyway, as gender, age, car model ect are all used to calculate a premium based on risk. In the UK you can have a "black box" fitted to your car by insurance companies, where low risk driving get you a discount on your renewal.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    Right. It would be interesting, though, if this new source of data for them only resulted in increases for certain people...and no decreases for anyone.
  - mfer 3y ago
    You can get the "black box" in the US, too. A big difference is that with the "black box" you opt-in. It's a choice. What's being reported on happens without people even having knowledge of the situation.
- nickjj 3y ago
  > This is, I assume, penalizing aggressive driving that hasn't yet resulted in a citation or accident. If there's no context about the situation then how do they differentiate aggressive driving vs reasonable driving? For example if you're in a 2 lane highway and the left lane is clear but you're behind someone doing 40 mph in a 60 mph on the right lane, so you quickly accelerate and switch lanes to pass them. Super defensive drivers who happen to also go unreasonably slow cause a lot of problems and traffic. Also, what about temporarily speeding to get through a yellow light because the alternative is to slam on your breaks and potentially get rear ended. Or coasting a bit above the speed limit because you're "keeping up with traffic" on a major highway with no lights.
jimmySixDOF 3y ago
So now it's location streaming to the highest bidder from apps on your phone, the os of your phone, the service provider to your phone, and your car physically moving the phone. Turtles all the way down.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Or it's playing cards all the way down. I see the whole thing collapsing from bad PR and taking the companies down with it. Good riddance. And give me my stick shift back.
jeegsy 3y ago
Is Toyota still the largest US automaker by sales? Curious they were not mentioned in the article.
- wil421 3y ago
  No GM took it back a couple years ago. I would bet GMs recent refreshes for SUVs grabbed a little bit of market share. Toyota lagged a little bit and had the same models/versions for a decade. I’d expect it may reverse now that Toyota has a ton of refreshed models coming out, Land Cruisers, 4Runner, and the Lexus GX are a few examples. https://www.statista.com/statistics/249375/us-market-share-of-selected-automobile-manufacturers/#:~:text=At%20around%2016.9%20percent%2C%20General,the%20United%20States%20in%202023 https://www.statista.com/statistics/249375/us-market-share-o....
hombre_fatal 3y ago
Hot take: rapid acceleration and braking are symptoms of bad driving, and bad driving should come with barriers to being on the road with us and landing in our insurance pools. Driving information is fine to collect on public roads, and it should be ubiquitous rather than something collected in secret. Meanwhile in Texas, red light cameras can’t even be used to give tickets anymore.
- trgn 3y ago
  100%. There is only one way to drive; calm and considerate. Need to do everything to make sure drivers actually drive like this.
- prepend 3y ago
  What’s rapid acceleration? What’s hard braking? Are the cars measuring it accurately? Why do I want my property reporting this data without my consent?
  - krastanov 3y ago
    It is a balance though. I do not like my property doing this type of reporting and I equally dislike someone else's property reporting data about me (e.g. a speed camera). But I do want everyone that uses a public good for which we pay together (roads) to follow certain rules and I want those rules enforced. These two preferences of mine are in conflict, as it is usual when considering the "commons".
    - kelnos 3y ago
      This has nothing to do with rules enforcement, though. This just affects insurance premiums.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  >>Hot take: rapid acceleration and braking are symptoms of bad driving I might not fully agree with that (that may be what makes it hot take:) I've been driving 30 years now, which means nothing (I firmly disagree with notion that "driving a long time" is the same as "driving well" or "being experienced":). I've taken about half a dozen safety driving courses though, and another half a dozen advanced driving courses, which hopefully might count for something - intent if nothing else. I'm trying to always be learning, practicing, paying attention to something when I'm driving - whether observational practices, state of mind, or particular skills in snow or rain etc. I would call myself a very defensive, occasionally aggressive driver. I don't think opposite of defensive is aggressive, or that safe and defensive are same as slow. I think opposite of defensive is offensive. I try to be acutely aware of the conditions, traffic, situation, and risk - there are few people who are as paranoid about vision obstructions as I am (e.g. kid jumping behind parked car in a residential neighbourhood etc). I also try to be predictable - just like UI/UX shouldn't surprise user, I don't think I should surprise fellow drivers :). I am generally considered by friends and family to be annoyingly cautions, safe, observant, usually slow driver. But I absolutely positively do undertake rapid acceleration and rapid braking at times, and most of the safest drivers I know do. My experience is that safest drivers are active drivers. There's myriad different reasons to undertake rapid acceleration and braking, under myriad different circumstances and intents. But I am terrified of the future where insurance and police algorithm put a straight equation sign between them :-/
nova22033 3y ago
Dahl said that his insurance agent told him the price increase was based on data collected by LexisNexis, which compiled a report tracking each and every time he and his wife drove their Chevy Bolt over a six-month period. You can request your free LexisNexis report https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/request https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/request
- Bilal_io 3y ago
  So credit bureaus have access to our credit history, compile and sell the reports without our consent and control. And now our cars share data so the same is done with our driving habits? The present is grim, and the future will be more so unless we step up and force lawmakers to pass laws to protect our privacy.
- cmilton 3y ago
  You can also partially opt-out: https://optout.lexisnexis.com/ https://optout.lexisnexis.com/
  - kelnos 3y ago
    This made me chuckle. They have some extra options for California residents, and one reads: > Partial Opt-Out: Allow for the Sale of My Professional Information but otherwise Do Not Sell My Personal Information So... sell it... but do not sell it?
tejohnso 3y ago
> Kia, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Honda and Acura enable drivers to turn off data collection relating to on-road behavior in their apps. > A Ford spokesperson told the Times that the company “does not transmit any connected vehicle data to either partner” How about completely removing the connectivity hardware from my vehicle? I can apply software updates via USB.
- damsalor 3y ago
  „It‘s for your safety“
janandonly 3y ago
Here in Holland, we have insurance companies that give you a smartphone app. This app runs in the background and sends your driving statistics to the company. This is sold as a feature with the promise that if you drive better than average, you'll pay less. Source: https://www.anwb.nl/verzekeringen/autoverzekering/veilig-rijden https://www.anwb.nl/verzekeringen/autoverzekering/veilig-rij...
- brianwawok 3y ago
  We have also had that for many years in the US. Most people don’t bother though. It’s opt in vs opt out, difference between 5% and 95% participation.
- not_a_real_56 3y ago
  How does the app know if you are driving or the passenger in a vehicle?
- bonton89 3y ago
  In the US I'd just assume that app was hoovering up everything they could, selling it to data brokers and then giving me a small cut back.
nkurz 3y ago
This seems reasonable to me: if you do things that statistically correlate to being more likely to cause an accident, why shouldn't the insurance company charge you more? And since it's a relatively small group of drivers who cause the most accidents, if we could identify them the majority would see their rates drop. It's an interesting topic, and it would be nice to see more details on the accuracy of the algorithm, but as a conservative driver likely to benefit, I like the idea. If everyone pays the same for insurance regardless of risk it's a terrible deal for those less likely to make a claim. The debate should be about the accuracy of the approach, not the concept.
- dandy23 3y ago
  Apply it to healthcare and rethink. Not saying you are completely wrong, but I think there are other measures to stop bad driving. The whole point of insurance is also the even out the tops and bottoms. If everyone paid their fair share cost for the insurance there would be no point with insurance. You could as well pay the damage yourself when it comes.
  - mint2 3y ago
    It’s not like health. Driving by and large is wholly controllable and should be rated on wholly controllable variables. Not BS stuff like are you married? no? then higher rates for you.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    I'm not a fan of car insurance company practices, but I don't think this line of reasoning makes sense. Driving safely is directly under each individual's control. Obviously things happen that couldn't reasonably be predicted and avoided, but you can choose to drive 65mph on the highway instead of 85mph, and if that actually does correlate with lower accident rates, then I think it's fair game for insurance to charge differently based on that. Health outcomes are... more complicated. Yes, there are things you do have control over that can make you more healthy or less healthy, but there are many confounding factors that might make you a big drain on your health insurance provider. Of course, no way in hell am I going to let insurance companies pry into my life to that degree.
nova22033 3y ago
Tony Soprano has the right idea when he "pulled out the global positioning shit" from his new Escalade https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/86d0f030-05fd-47d3-b301-44b22bd48dee https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/86d0f030-05fd-47d3-b301-44b22bd...
liampulles 3y ago
I think its a good thing in principle to align driving behavior with insurance policies. The issue for me is that this agreement has been made between the car company and the insurance company instead of me and the insurance company. And I'm disheartened to think that the average person is unlikely to care about this kind of B2B data agreement. Until one day, they go to apply for a mortgage and discover that their credit score has evolved into a complete picture of every aspect of their lives.
- cushpush 3y ago
  >a good thing in principle to align driving behavior with insurance policies. explain how it is not a roulette of penalties until you reach the upper echelons of wealth
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] Lots of discussion earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39709991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39709991

79 points by hotdailys 3y ago

Pokerface777 3y ago

What isn't spying on you nowadays?

sneak 3y ago
my laptop. my camera. my non-gsm vehicle. my garage door opener. my television. my coffee machine. my fridge. my e-reader. my paper library. my turntable. my furniture. my firearms. my hand tools. my bicycle. my luggage. my stove. most of my tools aren’t spying on me. this sort of “privacy is impossible, we shouldn’t fight privacy invasions” is defeatist and toxic imho.
- bdangubic 3y ago
  oh boy… your laptop is spying on you 24/7 unless it is in the basement disconnected from the internet. your TV is spying on you unless it is black&white :) you e-reader is spying on you. your non-gsm vehicle may not be spying on you directly but thosands or license plate readers all over the place are…
  - exe34 3y ago
    Are you sure? Or do you mean that you don't know how to stop those things? My kindle WiFi is permanently off. I use a usb cable. It stops it from downloading adverts to p*ss me off. My projector doesn't have a WiFi chip. It has an hdmi cable to my laptop. My laptop runs a pared down Linux, the only thing on it that spies on me is Google Chrome. That's a trade-off I'm comfortable with, since I use pihole to block the adverts so I don't have to see them.
    - jajko 3y ago
      Do you know what basic OS runs on your network card? Bios? Wifi router? Internet provider's whole infrastructure with built-in advanced deep packet inspection? It has been mentioned here in the past - in US there comes a guy (some 3-letter agency, probably NSA), installs new black box at ISP, and goes, nobody has a clue what that thingie does, mandated by law. That was before providers decided to just sell data themselves too (scrubbed probably, but not nearly well enough). I get you have most of the stuff covered, fine for you, but its nowhere near 100%. And literally any phone out there is like swiss cheese all the way down to wifi chip OS from ie Broadcom.
      - exe34 3y ago
        What's your threat model? Are you planning to bring down the US empire? If so, why are you using IT at all? Carrier pigeons and one time pads might be the only safe method of communication in that case.
        klibertp 3y ago
        > Carrier pigeons I wonder if the NSA has a trained falcons corps for that...
      - sneak 3y ago
        ISP DPI doesn’t affect me, every packet that leaves my house is wireguard.
  - sneak 3y ago
    my e-reader is not connected to a network. neither is my television. my laptop’s traffic is regularly monitored both on and off device, and i also have root on it. it’s not spying on me- i know because one actually has to check these sorts of things.
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  > my laptop. That almost certainly is > my camera Are you sure your images aren't being tagged with location data? That's a pretty common feature these days > my non-gsm vehicle Most vehicles still record diagnostic data. Even if they don't upload it > my television How old is your TV? Any TV made in the last 5 years will be. 10+ years will still have diagnostic logs but might not upload them automatically. Also satellite / cable TV networks track users too. > my e-reader I'd be very surprised if that was true. > my paper library As in your local library which you need to present your library card to check out publications? And who know who has what checkout out and for how long? They absolutely need to track their customers otherwise people would just steal books. --- > this sort of “privacy is impossible, we shouldn’t fight privacy invasions” is defeatist and toxic imho. This much I agree with.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- danpalmer 3y ago
  Other replies have made good points I agree with, but another way of looking at this is what "spying on me" means. For example, is bookmark sync "spying"? I would say no, but many would say yes simply because that sync goes through someone else's machine. If the browser vendor uses aggregated domain popularity across bookmarks to inform their browser testing, is that now spying on me? Maybe, but the term "spying" has significant negative connotations that still don't feel justified to me. What if the browser vendor uses those bookmarks to target personalised information about browser feature improvements, is that now spying? I might find that a bit weird, but there's still an arguable user benefit there, and if that happened on device it's not really any different to most offline data analysis. "Spying" really is a wide spectrum, from things that greatly benefit users with no privacy downside, to things that greatly benefit service providers with no user benefit. It's a nuance discussion that is worth having – just because something syncs to a server doesn't mean it's not worth doing, just because something is end to end encrypted doesn't mean it's not spying on you.
  - oakpond 3y ago
    I propose focusing on the worst part: information collection on a massive scale. Even if it is not used right now by a spy. They can use what is collected at this moment against you at any point in the future.
    - danpalmer 3y ago
      This is fair, but hard to define. If you necessarily store data as part of providing a service, but don't use that data for (example) ad targeting, is that a problem? That's a service that cannot exist without data collection (examples being cloud storage), and a service that is valuable to users. Should we avoid services because of what they could do in the future? Things like the DMA are addressing this well I think. The DMA aims to prevent sharing of data for things the user did not opt in to, that are outside of the product remit. So a hypothetical cloud storage provider could not use that data for ad targeting without getting an opt in from the user, but the user can still use the storage service.
- sebtron 3y ago
  If all of this is true, you must know very well how hard it is becoming to buy new devices that do not invade your privacy. If not, I have bad news for you...
- Pokerface777 3y ago
  I didn't give up on privacy, but it is getting increasingly harder to achieve. BTW do you know that your car broadcast unique IDs from each of your car wheels (TPMS), and that it is pretty hard to avoid facial recognition. or that they are installing car tag readers everywhere. You are ignoring so much of the spying that is going on. What about your phone? is it connected to cellphone towers? Is WiFi enabled... what about Bluetooth?
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Just looking at the past decade I think most people would agree that what isn't spying on you, will be. Or if that's not popular how about what isn't spying on you would be if they could. (And while I'm ranting, I'm sure manufacturers would love a subscription model for the clothes I wear as well but they haven't yet figured out how to do that.)
hagbard_c 3y ago
What isn't spying on me is nearly everything I use which contains the type of hardware that could be used to spy on me. The reason for that is that I keep things like that locked onto their own networks without the capability to reach back to their makers. I self-host more or less all my digital needs so assuming I'm not in the crosshairs of any TLA it is unlikely that there be spies in the server-under-the-stairs. My mobile devices run free software where possible, they are Google/Microsoft/Apple/etc.- free. Of course there does remain that one pain point of the radio firmware which is a closed-source blob and as such open to anyone with the money or governmental power to spy on me. There are also the banks which track financial transactions and the public transport companies which track where I go. When I'm on my bike, motorbike or tractor they're sadly out of luck since these are all old tech without any electronics. We heat the house using a wood-burning stove, I also use one to cook on, we generate more or less all our own electricity - yes, the inverter is also blocked from the 'net so it can not tell Fronius what we're doing here in the woods - but the power meter does spy on us though its radio transponder. I have access to what is supposed to be the same data through the P1 interface, it is theoretically possible to use this data to track whether we're home and what type of equipment (resistive/conductive) we're using. This is made harder when the inverter is running but it is not impossible. So, what is spying on me? - mobile transponders - financial institutions - public transport companies - power company Who is trying to spy on me but with a bit of luck mostly thwarted from doing so - Google/Microsoft/Metafaecesbook/Apple/etc (blocked and/or blended with other user's data) - internet access provider (swamped with proxied data) Who is not spying on me? - vehicles (too old) - internet-of-things devices (blocked)

TomSwirly 3y ago

The New York Post is not a reliable source.

tyingq 3y ago
It seems like mostly a paraphrasing of this NYT article: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv...
gmatejka 3y ago
Sorry I’m unfamiliar. Why?
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  It's a tabloid that's known for colorful rather than balanced reporting.
- zettabomb 3y ago
  It's a tabloid. Facts aren't particularly relevant to them. Basically the pre-internet equivalent of clickbait (although of course they do have an online presence now).
occz 3y ago
While this is true, the story is independently confirmed, so we can continue discussions on the subject anyway.
delfinom 3y ago
NYP is simply reposting NYTimes content. There's already a lawsuit filed against GM.

Veuxdo 3y ago

Who is Car?

tyingq 3y ago

It sounds a bit like the pre-crime angle from Minority Report. Because aggressive drivers with accidents and citations already pay higher rates. This is, I assume, penalizing aggressive driving that hasn't yet resulted in a citation or accident. Or, maybe, penalizing those that drive in riskier areas , regardless of habits? Might be interesting if someone could push for whether anyone's rates went down as a result of data sharing.

mjbeswick 3y ago
That's how insurance underwriting works anyway, as gender, age, car model ect are all used to calculate a premium based on risk. In the UK you can have a "black box" fitted to your car by insurance companies, where low risk driving get you a discount on your renewal.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Right. It would be interesting, though, if this new source of data for them only resulted in increases for certain people...and no decreases for anyone.
- mfer 3y ago
  You can get the "black box" in the US, too. A big difference is that with the "black box" you opt-in. It's a choice. What's being reported on happens without people even having knowledge of the situation.
nickjj 3y ago
> This is, I assume, penalizing aggressive driving that hasn't yet resulted in a citation or accident. If there's no context about the situation then how do they differentiate aggressive driving vs reasonable driving? For example if you're in a 2 lane highway and the left lane is clear but you're behind someone doing 40 mph in a 60 mph on the right lane, so you quickly accelerate and switch lanes to pass them. Super defensive drivers who happen to also go unreasonably slow cause a lot of problems and traffic. Also, what about temporarily speeding to get through a yellow light because the alternative is to slam on your breaks and potentially get rear ended. Or coasting a bit above the speed limit because you're "keeping up with traffic" on a major highway with no lights.

jimmySixDOF 3y ago

So now it's location streaming to the highest bidder from apps on your phone, the os of your phone, the service provider to your phone, and your car physically moving the phone. Turtles all the way down.

JKCalhoun 3y ago
Or it's playing cards all the way down. I see the whole thing collapsing from bad PR and taking the companies down with it. Good riddance. And give me my stick shift back.

jeegsy 3y ago

Is Toyota still the largest US automaker by sales? Curious they were not mentioned in the article.

wil421 3y ago
No GM took it back a couple years ago. I would bet GMs recent refreshes for SUVs grabbed a little bit of market share. Toyota lagged a little bit and had the same models/versions for a decade. I’d expect it may reverse now that Toyota has a ton of refreshed models coming out, Land Cruisers, 4Runner, and the Lexus GX are a few examples. https://www.statista.com/statistics/249375/us-market-share-of-selected-automobile-manufacturers/#:~:text=At%20around%2016.9%20percent%2C%20General,the%20United%20States%20in%202023 https://www.statista.com/statistics/249375/us-market-share-o....

hombre_fatal 3y ago

Hot take: rapid acceleration and braking are symptoms of bad driving, and bad driving should come with barriers to being on the road with us and landing in our insurance pools. Driving information is fine to collect on public roads, and it should be ubiquitous rather than something collected in secret. Meanwhile in Texas, red light cameras can’t even be used to give tickets anymore.

trgn 3y ago
100%. There is only one way to drive; calm and considerate. Need to do everything to make sure drivers actually drive like this.
prepend 3y ago
What’s rapid acceleration? What’s hard braking? Are the cars measuring it accurately? Why do I want my property reporting this data without my consent?
- krastanov 3y ago
  It is a balance though. I do not like my property doing this type of reporting and I equally dislike someone else's property reporting data about me (e.g. a speed camera). But I do want everyone that uses a public good for which we pay together (roads) to follow certain rules and I want those rules enforced. These two preferences of mine are in conflict, as it is usual when considering the "commons".
  - kelnos 3y ago
    This has nothing to do with rules enforcement, though. This just affects insurance premiums.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
>>Hot take: rapid acceleration and braking are symptoms of bad driving I might not fully agree with that (that may be what makes it hot take:) I've been driving 30 years now, which means nothing (I firmly disagree with notion that "driving a long time" is the same as "driving well" or "being experienced":). I've taken about half a dozen safety driving courses though, and another half a dozen advanced driving courses, which hopefully might count for something - intent if nothing else. I'm trying to always be learning, practicing, paying attention to something when I'm driving - whether observational practices, state of mind, or particular skills in snow or rain etc. I would call myself a very defensive, occasionally aggressive driver. I don't think opposite of defensive is aggressive, or that safe and defensive are same as slow. I think opposite of defensive is offensive. I try to be acutely aware of the conditions, traffic, situation, and risk - there are few people who are as paranoid about vision obstructions as I am (e.g. kid jumping behind parked car in a residential neighbourhood etc). I also try to be predictable - just like UI/UX shouldn't surprise user, I don't think I should surprise fellow drivers :). I am generally considered by friends and family to be annoyingly cautions, safe, observant, usually slow driver. But I absolutely positively do undertake rapid acceleration and rapid braking at times, and most of the safest drivers I know do. My experience is that safest drivers are active drivers. There's myriad different reasons to undertake rapid acceleration and braking, under myriad different circumstances and intents. But I am terrified of the future where insurance and police algorithm put a straight equation sign between them :-/

nova22033 3y ago

Dahl said that his insurance agent told him the price increase was based on data collected by LexisNexis, which compiled a report tracking each and every time he and his wife drove their Chevy Bolt over a six-month period. You can request your free LexisNexis report https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/request https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/request

Bilal_io 3y ago
So credit bureaus have access to our credit history, compile and sell the reports without our consent and control. And now our cars share data so the same is done with our driving habits? The present is grim, and the future will be more so unless we step up and force lawmakers to pass laws to protect our privacy.
cmilton 3y ago
You can also partially opt-out: https://optout.lexisnexis.com/ https://optout.lexisnexis.com/
- kelnos 3y ago
  This made me chuckle. They have some extra options for California residents, and one reads: > Partial Opt-Out: Allow for the Sale of My Professional Information but otherwise Do Not Sell My Personal Information So... sell it... but do not sell it?

tejohnso 3y ago

> Kia, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Honda and Acura enable drivers to turn off data collection relating to on-road behavior in their apps. > A Ford spokesperson told the Times that the company “does not transmit any connected vehicle data to either partner” How about completely removing the connectivity hardware from my vehicle? I can apply software updates via USB.

damsalor 3y ago
„It‘s for your safety“

janandonly 3y ago

Here in Holland, we have insurance companies that give you a smartphone app. This app runs in the background and sends your driving statistics to the company. This is sold as a feature with the promise that if you drive better than average, you'll pay less. Source: https://www.anwb.nl/verzekeringen/autoverzekering/veilig-rijden https://www.anwb.nl/verzekeringen/autoverzekering/veilig-rij...

brianwawok 3y ago
We have also had that for many years in the US. Most people don’t bother though. It’s opt in vs opt out, difference between 5% and 95% participation.
not_a_real_56 3y ago
How does the app know if you are driving or the passenger in a vehicle?
bonton89 3y ago
In the US I'd just assume that app was hoovering up everything they could, selling it to data brokers and then giving me a small cut back.

nkurz 3y ago

This seems reasonable to me: if you do things that statistically correlate to being more likely to cause an accident, why shouldn't the insurance company charge you more? And since it's a relatively small group of drivers who cause the most accidents, if we could identify them the majority would see their rates drop. It's an interesting topic, and it would be nice to see more details on the accuracy of the algorithm, but as a conservative driver likely to benefit, I like the idea. If everyone pays the same for insurance regardless of risk it's a terrible deal for those less likely to make a claim. The debate should be about the accuracy of the approach, not the concept.

dandy23 3y ago
Apply it to healthcare and rethink. Not saying you are completely wrong, but I think there are other measures to stop bad driving. The whole point of insurance is also the even out the tops and bottoms. If everyone paid their fair share cost for the insurance there would be no point with insurance. You could as well pay the damage yourself when it comes.
- mint2 3y ago
  It’s not like health. Driving by and large is wholly controllable and should be rated on wholly controllable variables. Not BS stuff like are you married? no? then higher rates for you.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I'm not a fan of car insurance company practices, but I don't think this line of reasoning makes sense. Driving safely is directly under each individual's control. Obviously things happen that couldn't reasonably be predicted and avoided, but you can choose to drive 65mph on the highway instead of 85mph, and if that actually does correlate with lower accident rates, then I think it's fair game for insurance to charge differently based on that. Health outcomes are... more complicated. Yes, there are things you do have control over that can make you more healthy or less healthy, but there are many confounding factors that might make you a big drain on your health insurance provider. Of course, no way in hell am I going to let insurance companies pry into my life to that degree.

nova22033 3y ago

Tony Soprano has the right idea when he "pulled out the global positioning shit" from his new Escalade https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/86d0f030-05fd-47d3-b301-44b22bd48dee https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/86d0f030-05fd-47d3-b301-44b22bd...

liampulles 3y ago

I think its a good thing in principle to align driving behavior with insurance policies. The issue for me is that this agreement has been made between the car company and the insurance company instead of me and the insurance company. And I'm disheartened to think that the average person is unlikely to care about this kind of B2B data agreement. Until one day, they go to apply for a mortgage and discover that their credit score has evolved into a complete picture of every aspect of their lives.

cushpush 3y ago
>a good thing in principle to align driving behavior with insurance policies. explain how it is not a roulette of penalties until you reach the upper echelons of wealth

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] Lots of discussion earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39709991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39709991