4 ms·

What would you use instead?

by winkelwagen 3y ago

aden1ne 3y ago
not OP, but I use terraform instead.
- simmerup 3y ago
  I find terraform doesn’t do the tear down as well
  - vegardx 3y ago
    In what way? I've always found that Terraform does it exceptionally well, mostly because of the dependency graph and how good providers map resources so that they don't end up in a dead lock.
  - AlecBG 3y ago
    I've found the exact opposite of that in practice. Had way more problems with tearing down CDK stacks
- re-thc 3y ago
  Terraform is too low level. If only there were L2 / L3 constructs like CDK. There are modules, but often only community / 3rd party.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    That’s on the way, eg https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/cdktf https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/cdktf
    - re-thc 3y ago
      Sure, but we're talking about now. Lots of things have been "on the way".
  - OJFord 3y ago
    > There are modules, but often only community / 3rd party. What, it's Terraform's fault that you haven't bothered to write one yourself?
    - zoover2020 3y ago
      Yes. No L2/L3 constructs is a hard no from an IaC buy-in perspective
      - OJFord 3y ago
        Well terraform is never going to have 'L2/L3 constructs' because that is just AWS terminology. https://docs.aws.amazon.com/prescriptive-guidance/latest/aws-cdk-layers/layer-3.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/prescriptive-guidance/latest/aws... What it does have is modules, which accomplish the same. And of course, if you don't want to write them then just as with L2/L3 constructs you are limited to using others'.
    - re-thc 3y ago
      > What, it's Terraform's fault that you haven't bothered to write one yourself? Let's just all code in assembly then? Because we all should bother to write anything and everything from scratch?
      - OJFord 3y ago
        No? The complaint was that they had to use a third party or community one, as though those people are doing by some kind of magic unavailable to them; they for some reason don't want to use those (maybe they're not suitable for particular use case, I don't know) and it's somehow terraform's fault that they haven't then written their own. It is possible, so I just don't understand what the complaint is.
        re-thc 3y ago
        > It is possible, so I just don't understand what the complaint is. And it is also possible to write in assembly, will you? > The complaint was that they had to use a third party or community one And isn't that fair? People want support? Official support? Is that wrong? And yes community modules especially since they might not be from the same group lack consistency, documentation and often doesn't get updated as regularly. The magic is the vendor is the only 1 that can properly coordinate updates. > as though those people are doing by some kind of magic unavailable to them Then why are you using Terraform? The APIs behind Terraform are also available to you so you can use that directly. There's no magic unavailable to you either. And you go beyond not using those APIs and build your own servers and data centers too. I don't get why Terraform is a fair abstraction you're defending yet you're arguing against people wanting a higher level of abstraction.

What would you use instead?

aden1ne 3y ago

not OP, but I use terraform instead.

simmerup 3y ago
I find terraform doesn’t do the tear down as well
- vegardx 3y ago
  In what way? I've always found that Terraform does it exceptionally well, mostly because of the dependency graph and how good providers map resources so that they don't end up in a dead lock.
- AlecBG 3y ago
  I've found the exact opposite of that in practice. Had way more problems with tearing down CDK stacks
re-thc 3y ago
Terraform is too low level. If only there were L2 / L3 constructs like CDK. There are modules, but often only community / 3rd party.
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  That’s on the way, eg https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/cdktf https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/cdktf
  - re-thc 3y ago
    Sure, but we're talking about now. Lots of things have been "on the way".
- OJFord 3y ago
  > There are modules, but often only community / 3rd party. What, it's Terraform's fault that you haven't bothered to write one yourself?
  - zoover2020 3y ago
    Yes. No L2/L3 constructs is a hard no from an IaC buy-in perspective
    - OJFord 3y ago
      Well terraform is never going to have 'L2/L3 constructs' because that is just AWS terminology. https://docs.aws.amazon.com/prescriptive-guidance/latest/aws-cdk-layers/layer-3.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/prescriptive-guidance/latest/aws... What it does have is modules, which accomplish the same. And of course, if you don't want to write them then just as with L2/L3 constructs you are limited to using others'.
  - re-thc 3y ago
    > What, it's Terraform's fault that you haven't bothered to write one yourself? Let's just all code in assembly then? Because we all should bother to write anything and everything from scratch?
    - OJFord 3y ago
      No? The complaint was that they had to use a third party or community one, as though those people are doing by some kind of magic unavailable to them; they for some reason don't want to use those (maybe they're not suitable for particular use case, I don't know) and it's somehow terraform's fault that they haven't then written their own. It is possible, so I just don't understand what the complaint is.
      - re-thc 3y ago
        > It is possible, so I just don't understand what the complaint is. And it is also possible to write in assembly, will you? > The complaint was that they had to use a third party or community one And isn't that fair? People want support? Official support? Is that wrong? And yes community modules especially since they might not be from the same group lack consistency, documentation and often doesn't get updated as regularly. The magic is the vendor is the only 1 that can properly coordinate updates. > as though those people are doing by some kind of magic unavailable to them Then why are you using Terraform? The APIs behind Terraform are also available to you so you can use that directly. There's no magic unavailable to you either. And you go beyond not using those APIs and build your own servers and data centers too. I don't get why Terraform is a fair abstraction you're defending yet you're arguing against people wanting a higher level of abstraction.