4 ms·

Ah, more badly supported gongkai cramware, using the cheapest and hardest to obtain drivers for anything. Everything is out-of-kernel, and you're making custom

by pierat 3y ago

Ah, more badly supported gongkai cramware, using the cheapest and hardest to obtain drivers for anything. Everything is out-of-kernel, and you're making custom kernels IF YOU CAN TRANSLATE CHINESE... And hope its made for your kernel version. And when you say something, you'll be screamed at "these are hackers tools bla bla bla". But they don't even work with reference software. They string hardware together, and slap a PINE logo on it. You're up shit's creek, and you have to MAKE the paddle. Or you get shit like hardware failures like "hardware destroying USB-C on the phone if the keyboard is pluged in on the Pinephone pro". Like, seriously, save your money. After dumping $600 into this "ecosystem" I'll hard pass. And I'll speak up for the pain and suffering you're getting into if you do go this route.

LanternLight83 3y ago
I get some of this (have an unused Pinephone), but I'm still thankful they tried (built up a stir) and, FWIW, the PineTime is OK and the Pinecil is the best soldering iron I've seen anyone use
- DaSHacka 3y ago
  > I get some of this (have an unused Pinephone), but I'm still thankful they tried (built up a stir) and, FWIW, the PineTime is OK and the Pinecil is the best soldering iron I've seen anyone use Surprised to see someone else echo my thoughts exactly, this is exactly what I've been saying for some years now whenever someone asks about buying Pine products. The PineTime is pretty decent (though the strap included OOTB is atrocious) and the pinecil is honestly awesome. The PinePhone is of course a disappointment, though that's par for the course for most of Pine64's stuff.
- atoav 3y ago
  Have you seen anyone use a JBC soldering station before?
  - stavros 3y ago
    No, and I'm sure that, when you use it, the angels themselves come down from heaven and sing hymns to make your board hotter, but there's a reason I've never seen anyone use it: It doesn't cost $35. The Pinecil is great at making things hot, even with challenging ground planes, it's very quick to reach the target temperature, and I can carry it with me in a pocket and power it from USB. There really isn't any soldering iron even an order of magnitude close to its combination of price, power, and versatility.
    - atoav 3y ago
      I have one, but I also solder enough to justify it. In the end, when it comes down to it the one thing that nobody should compromise on are the tips. There are open hardware soldering stations that use original hakko tips that work really well. Not sure if a similar thing exists for JBC. 10 years ago when I bought it that wasn't an option tho. Modern tips are expensive, but the difference to older tips is that they have the temperature-sensing element in the tip (as opposed to: in the handle), that means as soon as you touch something with the iron, short temperature dips are avoided and that makes soldering easier, more pleasant and quicker. That means the actual soldering station mainly needs to read that sensor and regulate the temperature by switching a Mosfet. That is not rocket science. Add a interface to control the temperature and maybe something that senses if the handle is put down (hall sensor in a holder?) and you are basically there in terms of functionality. Whether it will work as reliable I can't say, but it will be at least a 75% cheaper.
      - LanternLight83 3y ago
        I found it hard to parse whether you were describing JBC tips specifically, so as an FYI for readers, this is (AFAIK) how both JBC and Pinecil tips work (while still at very different price points)
dvdkon 3y ago
I think some people have misplaced expectation of Pine64 hardware, because some of their products (e.g. Pinecil) have been very polished. Most of it is a better documented and more open alternative to random gadgets from AliExpress. If you want a lot more than that, it's not for you. Maybe they should make a different brand for their products that end up being usable and polished. I think this mixed offering approach is hurting their image, which is a shame, as I see value in "cheap no-name HW, but hackable".
- colinng 3y ago
  Yes, the Pinecil (both versions) are awesome, and if you buy several and split the shipping with friends, affordable. But a majority of the work was done by the RalimOS project (firmware for several soldering irons). In the end, the input is DC or USB PD, a thermistor, accelerometer, volt meter, two buttons, and the output is a heating coil and a status screen. For the soldering iron to work is several orders of magnitude lower complexity than a phone. I’m sure they’d love for someone like Ralim to come along and write the entire OS for them. The problem is, as other posters have mentioned, there just aren’t enough millionaire programmers with nothing better to do than write a phone OS for you for free.
vrinsd 3y ago
Sadly (as much of a cynic as this makes me seem) I kinda figured this is exactly what would happen when the Pine people decided to partner/use MediaTek or name any other vendor who doesn't truly embrace or care about open-source. I'd spotlight Chinese SoC vendors here but that's biased, Qualcomm's track record isn't awesome here either, but it's my understanding people inside ARE trying to change that culture. My high-level observation is the Pine people are basically selling what's effectively a "reference design" built around some questionable hardware under the guise of making an open-source hardware/phone/etc. Whether or not the device actually works as a phone, has good battery life, works reliably is kind of a secondary goal and ends up mostly resting on the shoulders of a community of unpaid software developers. People here might be too young to remember, but there was a prior attempt at an open-phone called "OpenMoko". Despite using silicon that was more open-source friendy, it didn't really work out. It's REALLY challenging to build custom hardware, get the details right and build it on open-source software unless you're super well funded and very coordinated. It's however not hard to sell "kits" that give you the idea they'll do something but end up tricking the end-user who doesn't find out until after the money is spent.
- mattl 3y ago
  Really tried to use the OpenMoko and almost every other open source phone that came along for so long and never had any success.
  - vrinsd 3y ago
    Same. I was using SailfishOS on Xperia devices and also Ubuntu Touch. I found SailfishOS UI to be pretty bizarre and for using compiled software (Qt) the UI was oddly laggy. Basic things like attaching photos when sending an MMS were bizarre, you had to do it one at a time from the gallery app, etc. Ubuntu Touch has a pretty reasonable UI (aside from having a start-bar like thing that you swipe in and out) but they do NOT support VoLTE at the moment which means you can't use it as a phone! Performance on Ubuntu Touch was also pretty bad even on decent hardware and while it's improved on Pixel-era devices you'd think all UI interactions would be instaneous. Both projects seem to have made some strane prioritizations. Sailfish seems to have pointless re-invented their own UI paradigms, their own browser, etc and Ubuntu Touch doesn't seem to care the devices can't be used as phones given lack of VoLTE but they have Snaps and their own web browser...
Dalewyn 3y ago
>you're making custom kernels IF YOU CAN TRANSLATE CHINESE I feel this will be a useful skill to have in the mid- to long-term future if computing keeps going the way it has been going and goes where the vocal minority wants it to go. Lest we forget, the chief force behind RISC-V advancement has been China and China is slowly but surely also coming to parity with our latest silicon. Pax Americana and English as the lingua franca aren't guarantees anymore.
- azinman2 3y ago
  Except Chinese is too hard for the world to learn, particularly in a technical context where it’s about the written form. Any logographic will have the same fate. This means it’ll end up staying within China and they’ll have a hard time globally.
  - kybernetikos 3y ago
    Historically speaking, the countries around China started using their written characters even when they didn't adopt the language. This is one of the benefits of nonphonemic script. Certainly emoji seemed to gain broad acceptance very quickly.
zozbot234 3y ago
Every piece of hardware starts out as "out of kernel", the meaningful comparison is whether support has any chance of being upstreamed to Linux/Uboot and other such projects. And Pine64 will still fare a lot better on that score than the random fly-by-night Aliexpress vendors you're comparing them to, if only because of their FLOSS-friendly community orientation.
megous 3y ago
So why did you buy any Pine64 stuff in the first place?
eternityforest 3y ago
The pinetime looks nice. Everything else I really want to see succeed... But it's fairly hacker-y. I like open source, but I'm not really a big fan of hackers-only stuff that doesn't just work.
cassepipe 3y ago
I had read this article some time ago... It sounds like it is relevant : https://tuxphones.com/pine-formula/ https://tuxphones.com/pine-formula/
- blihp 3y ago
  Interesting article... I've been wondering why things seemed to go in a strange direction at Pine64. That article provided some clarity.

by pierat 3y ago

LanternLight83 3y ago

I get some of this (have an unused Pinephone), but I'm still thankful they tried (built up a stir) and, FWIW, the PineTime is OK and the Pinecil is the best soldering iron I've seen anyone use

DaSHacka 3y ago
> I get some of this (have an unused Pinephone), but I'm still thankful they tried (built up a stir) and, FWIW, the PineTime is OK and the Pinecil is the best soldering iron I've seen anyone use Surprised to see someone else echo my thoughts exactly, this is exactly what I've been saying for some years now whenever someone asks about buying Pine products. The PineTime is pretty decent (though the strap included OOTB is atrocious) and the pinecil is honestly awesome. The PinePhone is of course a disappointment, though that's par for the course for most of Pine64's stuff.
atoav 3y ago
Have you seen anyone use a JBC soldering station before?
- stavros 3y ago
  No, and I'm sure that, when you use it, the angels themselves come down from heaven and sing hymns to make your board hotter, but there's a reason I've never seen anyone use it: It doesn't cost $35. The Pinecil is great at making things hot, even with challenging ground planes, it's very quick to reach the target temperature, and I can carry it with me in a pocket and power it from USB. There really isn't any soldering iron even an order of magnitude close to its combination of price, power, and versatility.
  - atoav 3y ago
    I have one, but I also solder enough to justify it. In the end, when it comes down to it the one thing that nobody should compromise on are the tips. There are open hardware soldering stations that use original hakko tips that work really well. Not sure if a similar thing exists for JBC. 10 years ago when I bought it that wasn't an option tho. Modern tips are expensive, but the difference to older tips is that they have the temperature-sensing element in the tip (as opposed to: in the handle), that means as soon as you touch something with the iron, short temperature dips are avoided and that makes soldering easier, more pleasant and quicker. That means the actual soldering station mainly needs to read that sensor and regulate the temperature by switching a Mosfet. That is not rocket science. Add a interface to control the temperature and maybe something that senses if the handle is put down (hall sensor in a holder?) and you are basically there in terms of functionality. Whether it will work as reliable I can't say, but it will be at least a 75% cheaper.
    - LanternLight83 3y ago
      I found it hard to parse whether you were describing JBC tips specifically, so as an FYI for readers, this is (AFAIK) how both JBC and Pinecil tips work (while still at very different price points)

dvdkon 3y ago

I think some people have misplaced expectation of Pine64 hardware, because some of their products (e.g. Pinecil) have been very polished. Most of it is a better documented and more open alternative to random gadgets from AliExpress. If you want a lot more than that, it's not for you. Maybe they should make a different brand for their products that end up being usable and polished. I think this mixed offering approach is hurting their image, which is a shame, as I see value in "cheap no-name HW, but hackable".

colinng 3y ago
Yes, the Pinecil (both versions) are awesome, and if you buy several and split the shipping with friends, affordable. But a majority of the work was done by the RalimOS project (firmware for several soldering irons). In the end, the input is DC or USB PD, a thermistor, accelerometer, volt meter, two buttons, and the output is a heating coil and a status screen. For the soldering iron to work is several orders of magnitude lower complexity than a phone. I’m sure they’d love for someone like Ralim to come along and write the entire OS for them. The problem is, as other posters have mentioned, there just aren’t enough millionaire programmers with nothing better to do than write a phone OS for you for free.

vrinsd 3y ago

Sadly (as much of a cynic as this makes me seem) I kinda figured this is exactly what would happen when the Pine people decided to partner/use MediaTek or name any other vendor who doesn't truly embrace or care about open-source. I'd spotlight Chinese SoC vendors here but that's biased, Qualcomm's track record isn't awesome here either, but it's my understanding people inside ARE trying to change that culture. My high-level observation is the Pine people are basically selling what's effectively a "reference design" built around some questionable hardware under the guise of making an open-source hardware/phone/etc. Whether or not the device actually works as a phone, has good battery life, works reliably is kind of a secondary goal and ends up mostly resting on the shoulders of a community of unpaid software developers. People here might be too young to remember, but there was a prior attempt at an open-phone called "OpenMoko". Despite using silicon that was more open-source friendy, it didn't really work out. It's REALLY challenging to build custom hardware, get the details right and build it on open-source software unless you're super well funded and very coordinated. It's however not hard to sell "kits" that give you the idea they'll do something but end up tricking the end-user who doesn't find out until after the money is spent.

mattl 3y ago
Really tried to use the OpenMoko and almost every other open source phone that came along for so long and never had any success.
- vrinsd 3y ago
  Same. I was using SailfishOS on Xperia devices and also Ubuntu Touch. I found SailfishOS UI to be pretty bizarre and for using compiled software (Qt) the UI was oddly laggy. Basic things like attaching photos when sending an MMS were bizarre, you had to do it one at a time from the gallery app, etc. Ubuntu Touch has a pretty reasonable UI (aside from having a start-bar like thing that you swipe in and out) but they do NOT support VoLTE at the moment which means you can't use it as a phone! Performance on Ubuntu Touch was also pretty bad even on decent hardware and while it's improved on Pixel-era devices you'd think all UI interactions would be instaneous. Both projects seem to have made some strane prioritizations. Sailfish seems to have pointless re-invented their own UI paradigms, their own browser, etc and Ubuntu Touch doesn't seem to care the devices can't be used as phones given lack of VoLTE but they have Snaps and their own web browser...

Dalewyn 3y ago

>you're making custom kernels IF YOU CAN TRANSLATE CHINESE I feel this will be a useful skill to have in the mid- to long-term future if computing keeps going the way it has been going and goes where the vocal minority wants it to go. Lest we forget, the chief force behind RISC-V advancement has been China and China is slowly but surely also coming to parity with our latest silicon. Pax Americana and English as the lingua franca aren't guarantees anymore.

azinman2 3y ago
Except Chinese is too hard for the world to learn, particularly in a technical context where it’s about the written form. Any logographic will have the same fate. This means it’ll end up staying within China and they’ll have a hard time globally.
- kybernetikos 3y ago
  Historically speaking, the countries around China started using their written characters even when they didn't adopt the language. This is one of the benefits of nonphonemic script. Certainly emoji seemed to gain broad acceptance very quickly.

zozbot234 3y ago

Every piece of hardware starts out as "out of kernel", the meaningful comparison is whether support has any chance of being upstreamed to Linux/Uboot and other such projects. And Pine64 will still fare a lot better on that score than the random fly-by-night Aliexpress vendors you're comparing them to, if only because of their FLOSS-friendly community orientation.

megous 3y ago

So why did you buy any Pine64 stuff in the first place?

eternityforest 3y ago

The pinetime looks nice. Everything else I really want to see succeed... But it's fairly hacker-y. I like open source, but I'm not really a big fan of hackers-only stuff that doesn't just work.

cassepipe 3y ago

I had read this article some time ago... It sounds like it is relevant : https://tuxphones.com/pine-formula/ https://tuxphones.com/pine-formula/

blihp 3y ago
Interesting article... I've been wondering why things seemed to go in a strange direction at Pine64. That article provided some clarity.