3 ms·

> In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, Like some bad weather? I'd argue that accurately describes swathes of Texas just a few years ago. S

> In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, Like some bad weather? I'd argue that accurately describes swathes of Texas just a few years ago. Some areas lost power for days.

Infinity315 3y ago
Yes, but remember in this scenario people are desperate enough to riot for food. In this scenario, this is not just bad weather it's bad enough that it has become nearly logistically impossible for a developed nation to transfer enough resources to the people living in this region. In this scenario, why would I trade the food which I need now for cash? I don't care about a potentially large payoff in the future when my immediate needs are not met.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  I don't see what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that you would not give anyone else food? So you accept that no one else will give you food? Basically all transactions should stop? Or are you saying that transactions should not bother being counted. Everyone just takes what they say they need wherever they can find it? What is the guiding argument or thesis here?
  - Infinity315 3y ago
    > Are you saying that you would not give anyone else food? Imagine the point at which my neighbour is willing to riot for food. That means his neighbour is also likely willing to riot for food and so on and so forth. This also means I'm likely willing to riot for food. I am not trading my last couple of meals of which I don't know when I'll get for a thousands or even hundreds of thousands dollars. The point is if it gets bad enough that people immediate needs are not met, cash or money means very little. No matter how much of it you have, if you are at the point where you're rioting for food, there is likely not enough food for you or your neighbour who also doesn't know when they'll get their next meal. Do you think there will exist a point at which a person would much prefer food in their hand than even larger sums of cash? My point is that when a food riot occurs is when cash becomes worth less than food.
- u32480932048 3y ago
  It doesn't require a catastrophic siege-like environment; it just requires that electronic payment systems be unusable (e.g., a cyberattack). Having cash means you'll be one of the people buying food that weekend, and not stuck in line at ATMs or simply unable to purchase food until the card system comes back online. Maybe you need plywood and tarps and a few people to help. Maybe your workplace was flattened, but there's plenty to do - I'd rather get cash at the end of the day than a bunch of canned goods, unless I'm truly out of food and it's truly scarce. I can use that cash for other things like fuel, or stuff that was lost because my house was flattened. But in a scenario where people are desperate enough to riot for food, there will likely be shortages of other stuff, too. I'd assume it's more intuitive and fair to convert fuel-to-dollars and dollars-to-bread than fuel-to-bread, or days-wages-to-soup, which is the whole point of money anyway.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
    What makes you think it would matter if you had cash, when the payment systems go down? It's not like the cash registers would work without their own connectivity, which will be down too, if electricity is gone. Since there are almost no mom&pop shops in metropolitan areas anymore, which maybe could switch to pen&paper, abacus, that point is moot too. In reality you have personnel which shows a deep frown if the till says 42.52 and you give them 50 in bills, and 2.52 in coins, so they can give you an even 5 and 3 or 2 coins back. (adapt to your local currency and coinery) You can hear their mental scream "Oh my gawd! Aye need to calculate! Ze horror!" Fuel? With no electricity? Hand pumped? Somewhere far out in fly-over-county maybe.
    - u32480932048 3y ago
      This is the argument against only having a Stripe terminal in your shop. I'm sure some of them would need therapy after making change for a $50, which is sad on at least two levels. But most places I've lived seem to have plenty of non-IoT cash registers, and it's not infrequently that something is wrong with their card system, EBT is down, etc. That the financial district Sweetgreen won't be able to take my money is a risk I'm willing to assume. It's a much bigger deal when you're walking (or in rural America) and are faced with an hour+ trek to another store (or pay $3.75 to get $20 out, assuming the ATM works). I've also had unexpected overdrafts that affect only my account, and having a couple hundred to a thousand-some dollars of cash in my house has saved me numerous times. Fuel options with no electricity do in fact involve talking to some guy named Jim Bob, Buddy, or Mack, who is gonna want cash or raccoon pelts, not more canned goods or bread (he has plenty already, and I'm all out of raccoon pelts). Which brings me back to my original point: in any real catastrophic event, it's going to be other random people you're dealing with, not the IoT devices of faceless corporations. And most are not gonna want to negotiate raccoon pelts to fuel oil (or gold shavings, for that matter).
tialaramex 3y ago
Without power my supermarket also can't store its frozen or refrigerated goods safely, so that's about half of the store and notably the half which has mostly things shoppers might want immediately, if there's a disaster and I can't buy dishwasher powder I don't care, if I can't buy food that's a big problem - and much food is refrigerated whereas dishwasher powder is not. Next, it can't light the store. In mid-summer you can probably use the parts of the store with some natural light for most of the day, the rest of the store is too dark to allow customers, as is the behind the scenes re-stocking etc., they also can't open the delivery bays which are electrically shuttered, and they can't operate the doors, the escalators or the elevators. Now, I live in a major port city, so obviously in reality the power isn't going to stay off here, not for days, at home I've had a handful of short (< 2 hour) outages and one serious (~4-8 hour) outages in maybe 30 years living in this city. Anywhere with multiple supplies or backups is going to have even less problems. I can buy that things are different in rural areas, but it seems to me that mostly you need backups for other reasons anyway, and both electricity and IP are great in those terms because they're so fungible compared to conventional backups.
- jameshart 3y ago
  If in some natural disaster situation a store can get a generator up and running to keep and sell some goods, let’s consider two different scenarios. One where they’re relying on good old cash to sell the stuff, and one where they’ve managed to get a network connection up and running and are taking digital payments. In the cash scenario, customers who have cash in hand can buy stuff; now the store is running low on goods, but they have a pile of money in a safe. So they need to take that money to a wholesaler to buy more goods to sell. If they sell a bunch of goods for digital payments, the money’s all sitting in their online account. When they want to restock they can pay the wholesaler digitally and have stuff delivered. It’s almost like there’s a reason we invented banks.
SiempreViernes 3y ago
Well, there wasn't food riots then so no, that's not apocalyptic enough.

> In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, Like some bad weather? I'd argue that accurately describes swathes of Texas just a few years ago. Some areas lost power for days.

Infinity315 3y ago

Yes, but remember in this scenario people are desperate enough to riot for food. In this scenario, this is not just bad weather it's bad enough that it has become nearly logistically impossible for a developed nation to transfer enough resources to the people living in this region. In this scenario, why would I trade the food which I need now for cash? I don't care about a potentially large payoff in the future when my immediate needs are not met.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
I don't see what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that you would not give anyone else food? So you accept that no one else will give you food? Basically all transactions should stop? Or are you saying that transactions should not bother being counted. Everyone just takes what they say they need wherever they can find it? What is the guiding argument or thesis here?
- Infinity315 3y ago
  > Are you saying that you would not give anyone else food? Imagine the point at which my neighbour is willing to riot for food. That means his neighbour is also likely willing to riot for food and so on and so forth. This also means I'm likely willing to riot for food. I am not trading my last couple of meals of which I don't know when I'll get for a thousands or even hundreds of thousands dollars. The point is if it gets bad enough that people immediate needs are not met, cash or money means very little. No matter how much of it you have, if you are at the point where you're rioting for food, there is likely not enough food for you or your neighbour who also doesn't know when they'll get their next meal. Do you think there will exist a point at which a person would much prefer food in their hand than even larger sums of cash? My point is that when a food riot occurs is when cash becomes worth less than food.
u32480932048 3y ago
It doesn't require a catastrophic siege-like environment; it just requires that electronic payment systems be unusable (e.g., a cyberattack). Having cash means you'll be one of the people buying food that weekend, and not stuck in line at ATMs or simply unable to purchase food until the card system comes back online. Maybe you need plywood and tarps and a few people to help. Maybe your workplace was flattened, but there's plenty to do - I'd rather get cash at the end of the day than a bunch of canned goods, unless I'm truly out of food and it's truly scarce. I can use that cash for other things like fuel, or stuff that was lost because my house was flattened. But in a scenario where people are desperate enough to riot for food, there will likely be shortages of other stuff, too. I'd assume it's more intuitive and fair to convert fuel-to-dollars and dollars-to-bread than fuel-to-bread, or days-wages-to-soup, which is the whole point of money anyway.
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
  What makes you think it would matter if you had cash, when the payment systems go down? It's not like the cash registers would work without their own connectivity, which will be down too, if electricity is gone. Since there are almost no mom&pop shops in metropolitan areas anymore, which maybe could switch to pen&paper, abacus, that point is moot too. In reality you have personnel which shows a deep frown if the till says 42.52 and you give them 50 in bills, and 2.52 in coins, so they can give you an even 5 and 3 or 2 coins back. (adapt to your local currency and coinery) You can hear their mental scream "Oh my gawd! Aye need to calculate! Ze horror!" Fuel? With no electricity? Hand pumped? Somewhere far out in fly-over-county maybe.
  - u32480932048 3y ago
    This is the argument against only having a Stripe terminal in your shop. I'm sure some of them would need therapy after making change for a $50, which is sad on at least two levels. But most places I've lived seem to have plenty of non-IoT cash registers, and it's not infrequently that something is wrong with their card system, EBT is down, etc. That the financial district Sweetgreen won't be able to take my money is a risk I'm willing to assume. It's a much bigger deal when you're walking (or in rural America) and are faced with an hour+ trek to another store (or pay $3.75 to get $20 out, assuming the ATM works). I've also had unexpected overdrafts that affect only my account, and having a couple hundred to a thousand-some dollars of cash in my house has saved me numerous times. Fuel options with no electricity do in fact involve talking to some guy named Jim Bob, Buddy, or Mack, who is gonna want cash or raccoon pelts, not more canned goods or bread (he has plenty already, and I'm all out of raccoon pelts). Which brings me back to my original point: in any real catastrophic event, it's going to be other random people you're dealing with, not the IoT devices of faceless corporations. And most are not gonna want to negotiate raccoon pelts to fuel oil (or gold shavings, for that matter).

tialaramex 3y ago

Without power my supermarket also can't store its frozen or refrigerated goods safely, so that's about half of the store and notably the half which has mostly things shoppers might want immediately, if there's a disaster and I can't buy dishwasher powder I don't care, if I can't buy food that's a big problem - and much food is refrigerated whereas dishwasher powder is not. Next, it can't light the store. In mid-summer you can probably use the parts of the store with some natural light for most of the day, the rest of the store is too dark to allow customers, as is the behind the scenes re-stocking etc., they also can't open the delivery bays which are electrically shuttered, and they can't operate the doors, the escalators or the elevators. Now, I live in a major port city, so obviously in reality the power isn't going to stay off here, not for days, at home I've had a handful of short (< 2 hour) outages and one serious (~4-8 hour) outages in maybe 30 years living in this city. Anywhere with multiple supplies or backups is going to have even less problems. I can buy that things are different in rural areas, but it seems to me that mostly you need backups for other reasons anyway, and both electricity and IP are great in those terms because they're so fungible compared to conventional backups.

jameshart 3y ago
If in some natural disaster situation a store can get a generator up and running to keep and sell some goods, let’s consider two different scenarios. One where they’re relying on good old cash to sell the stuff, and one where they’ve managed to get a network connection up and running and are taking digital payments. In the cash scenario, customers who have cash in hand can buy stuff; now the store is running low on goods, but they have a pile of money in a safe. So they need to take that money to a wholesaler to buy more goods to sell. If they sell a bunch of goods for digital payments, the money’s all sitting in their online account. When they want to restock they can pay the wholesaler digitally and have stuff delivered. It’s almost like there’s a reason we invented banks.

SiempreViernes 3y ago

Well, there wasn't food riots then so no, that's not apocalyptic enough.