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Sure. And a few armed powerboats couldn’t defeat a US carrier group. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M

Sure. And a few armed powerboats couldn’t defeat a US carrier group. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

lukan 3y ago
Well, it was a bit more than that, but it is still hilarious, how they changed everything after the initial desaster, so that the US side would still win: "After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory." The alternative would have been uncomfortable after all.
- sillywalk 3y ago
  That was so sad. The whole point of the exercise was have been to validate whether Networked Warfare doctrine "worked". But, aside from refloating the navy, some of the restrictions like the Red OPFOR wasn't allowed to shoot down V-22s or C-130s while they were invading, also, "The white cell also directed the chief of staff that the red team had to position its air defense assets out in the open so the blue forces could easily destroy them. Even after some were not destroyed, the red team was forbidden to fire upon blue forces as they conducted a live airborne drop. Van Riper asked the white cell if his forces could at least deploy the chemical weapons that he possessed, but he was again denied."[0] [0] https://warontherocks.com/2015/11/millennium-challenge-the-real-story-of-a-corrupted-military-exercise-and-its-legacy/ https://warontherocks.com/2015/11/millennium-challenge-the-r...
- ranger207 3y ago
  Large scale exercises like that are only ever half wargames. You can do wargames all day long in Newport, but it's a little harder to get a few dozen boats and a few thousand sailors together to practice their normal operations. If you do have an exercise and the OPFOR manages to win, then it switches from half wargame half training exercise to full training exercise, or switches to a different scenario. "Ok, we lost that scenario, we'll go home and come up with a different strategy later. While everyone's here, how about let's try this different scenario instead? no, we don't want to deal with chemical weapons right now, we need work on dealing with air defenses and adding in WMDs would complicate things too much right now"
  - lukan 3y ago
    "no, we don't want to deal with chemical weapons right now, we need work on dealing with air defenses and adding in WMDs would complicate things too much right now" Sure, but then why add them in the first place? And no, when everyone is already there, it does not make sense to send them home, after the initial failure. But what they then did, was not a "wargame" anymore. But they still called it like that and still had a US "victory" in the end. That sounds fake to boost moral (while ignoring serious flaws).
ranger207 3y ago
Well, no, a few armed powerboats couldn't take out a US carrier group, unless they had advantages such as the carrier group being constrained to an anchorage out of the way of shipping lanes and unable to maneuver, being able to carry missiles heavier than the entire rest of the boat, having un-interdictable motorcycle couriers that could transit at the speed of light, or a few other minor techological innovations that the OPFOR commander implemented in the Millennium Challenge

Sure. And a few armed powerboats couldn’t defeat a US carrier group. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

lukan 3y ago

Well, it was a bit more than that, but it is still hilarious, how they changed everything after the initial desaster, so that the US side would still win: "After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory." The alternative would have been uncomfortable after all.

sillywalk 3y ago
That was so sad. The whole point of the exercise was have been to validate whether Networked Warfare doctrine "worked". But, aside from refloating the navy, some of the restrictions like the Red OPFOR wasn't allowed to shoot down V-22s or C-130s while they were invading, also, "The white cell also directed the chief of staff that the red team had to position its air defense assets out in the open so the blue forces could easily destroy them. Even after some were not destroyed, the red team was forbidden to fire upon blue forces as they conducted a live airborne drop. Van Riper asked the white cell if his forces could at least deploy the chemical weapons that he possessed, but he was again denied."[0] [0] https://warontherocks.com/2015/11/millennium-challenge-the-real-story-of-a-corrupted-military-exercise-and-its-legacy/ https://warontherocks.com/2015/11/millennium-challenge-the-r...
ranger207 3y ago
Large scale exercises like that are only ever half wargames. You can do wargames all day long in Newport, but it's a little harder to get a few dozen boats and a few thousand sailors together to practice their normal operations. If you do have an exercise and the OPFOR manages to win, then it switches from half wargame half training exercise to full training exercise, or switches to a different scenario. "Ok, we lost that scenario, we'll go home and come up with a different strategy later. While everyone's here, how about let's try this different scenario instead? no, we don't want to deal with chemical weapons right now, we need work on dealing with air defenses and adding in WMDs would complicate things too much right now"
- lukan 3y ago
  "no, we don't want to deal with chemical weapons right now, we need work on dealing with air defenses and adding in WMDs would complicate things too much right now" Sure, but then why add them in the first place? And no, when everyone is already there, it does not make sense to send them home, after the initial failure. But what they then did, was not a "wargame" anymore. But they still called it like that and still had a US "victory" in the end. That sounds fake to boost moral (while ignoring serious flaws).

ranger207 3y ago

Well, no, a few armed powerboats couldn't take out a US carrier group, unless they had advantages such as the carrier group being constrained to an anchorage out of the way of shipping lanes and unable to maneuver, being able to carry missiles heavier than the entire rest of the boat, having un-interdictable motorcycle couriers that could transit at the speed of light, or a few other minor techological innovations that the OPFOR commander implemented in the Millennium Challenge