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This article makes no sense. It postulates that EVs will cost more to repair, and justifies the statement by the current lack of availablity and high cost of r

This article makes no sense. It postulates that EVs will cost more to repair, and justifies the statement by the current lack of availablity and high cost of repair shops and parts for the Renault Zoe. As for crashing, it's commonly understood that even on ICE cars, even minor damage to structural elements can total a 5+ year old car.

reidacdc 3y ago
I noticed that too. I was also surprised that they called out the complexity of EV drivetrains (and charging systems, but I don't know anything about those) as a factor. My prior understanding was that EV drivetrains are significantly simpler than ICE ones, the number of moving parts is comparatively low for EVs, and you don't have the large temperature gradients and intense mechanical impulses that come from repeatedly igniting fuel/air mixtures. I don't dispute the empirical claims, but as the parent comment implies, I think this is mostly about the maturity of the repair ecosystem, and it's reasonable to expect that that will improve as EVs become more prevalent. It's not a reason to stop, it's a reason to keep going.
- wakawaka28 3y ago
  At least theoretically, EV drive trains should be more durable than their gasoline counterparts. But the batteries are the weak point. Nobody is making modular batteries that can be easily diagnosed and swapped, and those batteries are essentially incendiary devices that even an expert cannot assess. It's an opaque canister of chemicals that could be damaged internally without anyone being aware. External damage almost always causes spectacular fires that can't be extinguished. If you have an EV and get in a wreck, GTFO as soon as you can, especially if there are any fumes in sight.
  - bcrl 3y ago
    The Ionic 5 has a quite modular battery array that looks far more repairable than other electric cars. Have a look at a teardown over here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PASNQU5RSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PASNQU5RSw
    - wakawaka28 3y ago
      I was talking about the Ioniq 5 in a different comment: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-i... If Hyundai won't fix it for less than $60k, and they total the car for scuff marks on the bottom, where does that leave you? Maybe you can get that Youtuber to fix it for you?
      - bcrl 3y ago
        Dealers are known for being expensive. Furthermore, $60k is mostly a "go away" price from the dealer signalling that they don't have the skills and don't want to take on the risk on learning the skills needed to make the repair. The end result is that the article says more about the dealer than the manufacturer. There are plenty of decent third party mechanics in the world that are willing to try. There's a similar video on youtube about repairing a dent in a Rivian truck. The official repair by a dealer was quoted at more than $40k as it involved replacing the entire single piece panel that was "damaged". Instead, a small auto body shop spent the 2 days needed to gently pull out the dent, fill in the scratches and touch up the paint for something like $3k. Not all mechanics are created equal. Find one that's willing to work with you, which will become easier as electric vehicles become more common.
        wakawaka28 3y ago
        If you have a warranty, you may be obligated to go to the dealer or forfeit the warranty if I'm not mistaken. I never had this issue though. If the dealer wants you to gtfo with that garbage, a nearly new vehicle with their name on it, why do you think anyone else would be better able to do the job? I think a particular dealer not able to do the work would refer you to another dealer who could, if it was just a skill issue. The problem with the Rivian was the body is all in one piece and made of aluminum, which is not easily reworked. Making the bed of a truck out of a soft metal that is hard to rework is a bad idea. But perhaps there is someone out there who could do it cheap.
        3y ago
wakawaka28 3y ago
Hyundai essentially totaled 2 Ioniqs in Canada due to minor damage on the bottom that would be considered inconsequential on a gas vehicle. They wanted 60k to replace the batteries on those, which is more than the whole car cost. Teslas are notoriously expensive to fix. Rivian has a unibody design that can result in a $40k dent repair, IF you can even find someone to do it. Some of this is due to bad design and bad management, but the modern EV is so much more dangerous when damaged than a gasoline car, it warrants extreme precautions. There are gasoline cars on the road that have a million miles on them. There are plenty of others over 50 years old still running great. If you think they're even remotely as fragile and difficult to rebuild as EVs, you are sadly mistaken.
taylodl 3y ago
There's no postulation - the insurance companies have the data. EVs are simply more to repair for similar damage to ICE vehicles. That's why many are seeing their insurance rates soar. Trust me, the people getting those bills aren't postulating about the higher costs! Part of the story is EVs are getting into more accidents. I've seen an interesting theory as to why that is: they simply accelerate faster. Whether that increase in acceleration is causing accidents or causing people to get exhilarated with the new-found power and causing them to drive more recklessly is anybody's guess. Another interesting theory I've seen on that front is the earlier generations of Teslas were so expensive that only the well-off, and therefore tend to be older and more responsible, drivers could afford them. Now younger drivers are able to afford them and their driving habits aren't the same as their older counterparts and you're putting extremely capable muscle car capabilities into their hands that they've never had before. Many young guys get high on that kind of power and cause accidents. It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.

reidacdc 3y ago

I noticed that too. I was also surprised that they called out the complexity of EV drivetrains (and charging systems, but I don't know anything about those) as a factor. My prior understanding was that EV drivetrains are significantly simpler than ICE ones, the number of moving parts is comparatively low for EVs, and you don't have the large temperature gradients and intense mechanical impulses that come from repeatedly igniting fuel/air mixtures. I don't dispute the empirical claims, but as the parent comment implies, I think this is mostly about the maturity of the repair ecosystem, and it's reasonable to expect that that will improve as EVs become more prevalent. It's not a reason to stop, it's a reason to keep going.

wakawaka28 3y ago
At least theoretically, EV drive trains should be more durable than their gasoline counterparts. But the batteries are the weak point. Nobody is making modular batteries that can be easily diagnosed and swapped, and those batteries are essentially incendiary devices that even an expert cannot assess. It's an opaque canister of chemicals that could be damaged internally without anyone being aware. External damage almost always causes spectacular fires that can't be extinguished. If you have an EV and get in a wreck, GTFO as soon as you can, especially if there are any fumes in sight.
- bcrl 3y ago
  The Ionic 5 has a quite modular battery array that looks far more repairable than other electric cars. Have a look at a teardown over here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PASNQU5RSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PASNQU5RSw
  - wakawaka28 3y ago
    I was talking about the Ioniq 5 in a different comment: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-i... If Hyundai won't fix it for less than $60k, and they total the car for scuff marks on the bottom, where does that leave you? Maybe you can get that Youtuber to fix it for you?
    - bcrl 3y ago
      Dealers are known for being expensive. Furthermore, $60k is mostly a "go away" price from the dealer signalling that they don't have the skills and don't want to take on the risk on learning the skills needed to make the repair. The end result is that the article says more about the dealer than the manufacturer. There are plenty of decent third party mechanics in the world that are willing to try. There's a similar video on youtube about repairing a dent in a Rivian truck. The official repair by a dealer was quoted at more than $40k as it involved replacing the entire single piece panel that was "damaged". Instead, a small auto body shop spent the 2 days needed to gently pull out the dent, fill in the scratches and touch up the paint for something like $3k. Not all mechanics are created equal. Find one that's willing to work with you, which will become easier as electric vehicles become more common.
      - wakawaka28 3y ago
        If you have a warranty, you may be obligated to go to the dealer or forfeit the warranty if I'm not mistaken. I never had this issue though. If the dealer wants you to gtfo with that garbage, a nearly new vehicle with their name on it, why do you think anyone else would be better able to do the job? I think a particular dealer not able to do the work would refer you to another dealer who could, if it was just a skill issue. The problem with the Rivian was the body is all in one piece and made of aluminum, which is not easily reworked. Making the bed of a truck out of a soft metal that is hard to rework is a bad idea. But perhaps there is someone out there who could do it cheap.
        3y ago

wakawaka28 3y ago

Hyundai essentially totaled 2 Ioniqs in Canada due to minor damage on the bottom that would be considered inconsequential on a gas vehicle. They wanted 60k to replace the batteries on those, which is more than the whole car cost. Teslas are notoriously expensive to fix. Rivian has a unibody design that can result in a $40k dent repair, IF you can even find someone to do it. Some of this is due to bad design and bad management, but the modern EV is so much more dangerous when damaged than a gasoline car, it warrants extreme precautions. There are gasoline cars on the road that have a million miles on them. There are plenty of others over 50 years old still running great. If you think they're even remotely as fragile and difficult to rebuild as EVs, you are sadly mistaken.

taylodl 3y ago

There's no postulation - the insurance companies have the data. EVs are simply more to repair for similar damage to ICE vehicles. That's why many are seeing their insurance rates soar. Trust me, the people getting those bills aren't postulating about the higher costs! Part of the story is EVs are getting into more accidents. I've seen an interesting theory as to why that is: they simply accelerate faster. Whether that increase in acceleration is causing accidents or causing people to get exhilarated with the new-found power and causing them to drive more recklessly is anybody's guess. Another interesting theory I've seen on that front is the earlier generations of Teslas were so expensive that only the well-off, and therefore tend to be older and more responsible, drivers could afford them. Now younger drivers are able to afford them and their driving habits aren't the same as their older counterparts and you're putting extremely capable muscle car capabilities into their hands that they've never had before. Many young guys get high on that kind of power and cause accidents. It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.