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I strongly disagree re:Apple software. We must have drastically different usage scenarios, since I find it a pleasure. What software do you have issue with, and

by joemi 3y ago

I strongly disagree re:Apple software. We must have drastically different usage scenarios, since I find it a pleasure. What software do you have issue with, and why?

kybernetyk 3y ago
I think he's missing the forced advertisements in the macOS startmenu. Or the forced restarts/updates :)
bmitc 3y ago
Homebrew is a nightmare. Nearly every development tool on macOS requires some sort of workaround, usually found in the depths of forums or StackOverflow. Apple has also positioned macOS to be the absolute worst platform for graphics libraries. They only support Metal and an outdated version of OpenGL which they'll remove entirely at one point. Windows directly supports DirectX, Vulkan, and OpenGL. Go ahead and try to rename iTunes because there's no other way to keep it from opening when your non-Apple Bluetooth headphones connect. Good luck. There's not even a built-in way to uninstall programs in macOS. It's bizarre. Or the fact that macOS doesn't implement basic protocols for external monitors, making macOS work terribly with non-Apple monitors.
- joemi 3y ago
  > Go ahead and try to rename iTunes because there's no other way to keep it from opening when your non-Apple Bluetooth headphones connect. Good luck. I have non-Apple bluetooth headphones (Sennheisers) and this isn't something that happens on my M1 MacBook Pro. Is this a common issue for other people?
  - bmitc 3y ago
    A quick search will verify its commonality, and like most Apple issues, it's been ongoing for years.
    - joemi 3y ago
      Huh. Weird. I've had my sennheisers for years, through multiple OS updates, and I've always been surprised by just how well using them works on my macbook pro. Until this thread, I had never even heard of the problem.
- Klonoar 3y ago
  So what re: workarounds? It’s not Linux, it will never be Linux. Systems are allowed to be different and do different things.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    Well that's fine, but Windows isn't Linux but everybody treats it like such, hating on it for not being Linux while people often praise macOS for being "Unix". For macOS, it doesn't have the installer system that Windows has, so solutions like Homebrew are created to try and graft Linux things on it. Usually, the trouble is that Apple has made some asinine decision with the default tooling installed or some other strange limitation. And because Apple is constantly breaking software, it creates a lot of churn on macOS. From PowerPC to Intel to Arm, from ObjectiveC to Swift, from Cocoa to Metal, etc., they're constantly upheaving the ecosystem and OS. Meanwhile, it provides very little to the end user other than normally increasing the size of Apple's walled garden.
    - Klonoar 3y ago
      > Well that's fine, but Windows isn't Linux but everybody treats it like such, hating on it for not being Linux while people often praise macOS for being "Unix". Because even being partly Unix (or technically, full Unix) is easier to deal with than Windows entirely different stack. ;P > For macOS, it doesn't have the installer system that Windows has, so solutions like Homebrew are created to try and graft Linux things on it. No? Homebrew was just the creation of someone who didn't like the way MacPorts did it back in the day. MacPorts is literally the FreeBSD ports tree cloned to work on macOS, and back in the day was partly funded by Apple. (MacPorts arguably worked around the macOS-isms better than Homebrew does, but people chased Homebrew and here we are.) > Usually, the trouble is that Apple has made some asinine decision with the default tooling installed or some other strange limitation. Unless you can actually note one of those choices or limitations, this isn't much of a point. > And because Apple is constantly breaking software, it creates a lot of churn on macOS. From PowerPC to Intel to Arm, from ObjectiveC to Swift, from Cocoa to Metal, etc., they're constantly upheaving the ecosystem and OS. PowerPC to Intel to Arm happened over the space of multiple decades, and "Cocoa to Metal" doesn't even make sense in the context of tech stacks. Your entire comment is just complaining because an alternative solution doesn't fit your built-in mental model of how things should work.
- jwells89 3y ago
  To nitpick a bit, IIRC Windows itself doesn’t support Vulkan, that’s left to GPU vendors.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    Thanks for the correction. That appears to be right, but Windows allows it.
- lm411 3y ago
  > There's not even a built-in way to uninstall programs in macOS. It's bizarre. You literally just drag the app to the trash can. Properly sandboxed Mac apps are a delight to uninstall. Yes, some apps are more difficult, but those are usually Windows apps that are crudely ported to MacOS and that's on the developers for not creating proper MacOS apps.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    Yes. Everyone knows that. But that doesn't uninstall the application. It just deletes the top files. It doesn't remove any caching or configurations or other files in other parts of the system like a Windows uninstaller does. To do that on macOS, there are third-party apps that provide this functionality.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      Windows uninstallers generally don't remove configurations and cached data, either.
      - bmitc 3y ago
        Not in my experience, the majority of the time. Those that don't are usually Linux ported apps that don't utilize the install functionality properly. The point is that the OS provides the tools to do so.
        int_19h 3y ago
        Not removing settings is in fact the standard and expected behavior for MSI-based installers (i.e. those using OS-provided tools). The framework is very paranoid about tracking the origin of every artifact (files, registry keys etc), and removing something in the uninstaller that installer did not add is considered a huge no-no. It is also what users generally expect - if they uninstall and later reinstall, they want their settings to be there. Providing the ability to remove settings is something that has to be explicitly implemented (because the installer infrastructure cannot track files created outside of the installer), so relatively few apps actually do that. Those that do pretty much always do it as an opt-in. In my 30 years of Windows use, I don't recall a single example to the contrary.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  Homebrew is one of my favorite pieces of software
- blacksmith_tb 3y ago
  Installing is varied on macOS, but there's certainly a default way to uninstall applications - just drag the application to the Trash. That said I have some sympathy for your complaint, since things that have you run an installer can sprinkle themselves all over the filesystem, and though they leave a trail, there isn't a standard way to reverse that (I find AppCleaner pretty handy for removing all the parts in those cases).

by joemi 3y ago

I strongly disagree re:Apple software. We must have drastically different usage scenarios, since I find it a pleasure. What software do you have issue with, and why?

kybernetyk 3y ago

I think he's missing the forced advertisements in the macOS startmenu. Or the forced restarts/updates :)

bmitc 3y ago

Homebrew is a nightmare. Nearly every development tool on macOS requires some sort of workaround, usually found in the depths of forums or StackOverflow. Apple has also positioned macOS to be the absolute worst platform for graphics libraries. They only support Metal and an outdated version of OpenGL which they'll remove entirely at one point. Windows directly supports DirectX, Vulkan, and OpenGL. Go ahead and try to rename iTunes because there's no other way to keep it from opening when your non-Apple Bluetooth headphones connect. Good luck. There's not even a built-in way to uninstall programs in macOS. It's bizarre. Or the fact that macOS doesn't implement basic protocols for external monitors, making macOS work terribly with non-Apple monitors.

joemi 3y ago
> Go ahead and try to rename iTunes because there's no other way to keep it from opening when your non-Apple Bluetooth headphones connect. Good luck. I have non-Apple bluetooth headphones (Sennheisers) and this isn't something that happens on my M1 MacBook Pro. Is this a common issue for other people?
- bmitc 3y ago
  A quick search will verify its commonality, and like most Apple issues, it's been ongoing for years.
  - joemi 3y ago
    Huh. Weird. I've had my sennheisers for years, through multiple OS updates, and I've always been surprised by just how well using them works on my macbook pro. Until this thread, I had never even heard of the problem.
Klonoar 3y ago
So what re: workarounds? It’s not Linux, it will never be Linux. Systems are allowed to be different and do different things.
- bmitc 3y ago
  Well that's fine, but Windows isn't Linux but everybody treats it like such, hating on it for not being Linux while people often praise macOS for being "Unix". For macOS, it doesn't have the installer system that Windows has, so solutions like Homebrew are created to try and graft Linux things on it. Usually, the trouble is that Apple has made some asinine decision with the default tooling installed or some other strange limitation. And because Apple is constantly breaking software, it creates a lot of churn on macOS. From PowerPC to Intel to Arm, from ObjectiveC to Swift, from Cocoa to Metal, etc., they're constantly upheaving the ecosystem and OS. Meanwhile, it provides very little to the end user other than normally increasing the size of Apple's walled garden.
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    > Well that's fine, but Windows isn't Linux but everybody treats it like such, hating on it for not being Linux while people often praise macOS for being "Unix". Because even being partly Unix (or technically, full Unix) is easier to deal with than Windows entirely different stack. ;P > For macOS, it doesn't have the installer system that Windows has, so solutions like Homebrew are created to try and graft Linux things on it. No? Homebrew was just the creation of someone who didn't like the way MacPorts did it back in the day. MacPorts is literally the FreeBSD ports tree cloned to work on macOS, and back in the day was partly funded by Apple. (MacPorts arguably worked around the macOS-isms better than Homebrew does, but people chased Homebrew and here we are.) > Usually, the trouble is that Apple has made some asinine decision with the default tooling installed or some other strange limitation. Unless you can actually note one of those choices or limitations, this isn't much of a point. > And because Apple is constantly breaking software, it creates a lot of churn on macOS. From PowerPC to Intel to Arm, from ObjectiveC to Swift, from Cocoa to Metal, etc., they're constantly upheaving the ecosystem and OS. PowerPC to Intel to Arm happened over the space of multiple decades, and "Cocoa to Metal" doesn't even make sense in the context of tech stacks. Your entire comment is just complaining because an alternative solution doesn't fit your built-in mental model of how things should work.
jwells89 3y ago
To nitpick a bit, IIRC Windows itself doesn’t support Vulkan, that’s left to GPU vendors.
- bmitc 3y ago
  Thanks for the correction. That appears to be right, but Windows allows it.
lm411 3y ago
> There's not even a built-in way to uninstall programs in macOS. It's bizarre. You literally just drag the app to the trash can. Properly sandboxed Mac apps are a delight to uninstall. Yes, some apps are more difficult, but those are usually Windows apps that are crudely ported to MacOS and that's on the developers for not creating proper MacOS apps.
- bmitc 3y ago
  Yes. Everyone knows that. But that doesn't uninstall the application. It just deletes the top files. It doesn't remove any caching or configurations or other files in other parts of the system like a Windows uninstaller does. To do that on macOS, there are third-party apps that provide this functionality.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    Windows uninstallers generally don't remove configurations and cached data, either.
    - bmitc 3y ago
      Not in my experience, the majority of the time. Those that don't are usually Linux ported apps that don't utilize the install functionality properly. The point is that the OS provides the tools to do so.
      - int_19h 3y ago
        Not removing settings is in fact the standard and expected behavior for MSI-based installers (i.e. those using OS-provided tools). The framework is very paranoid about tracking the origin of every artifact (files, registry keys etc), and removing something in the uninstaller that installer did not add is considered a huge no-no. It is also what users generally expect - if they uninstall and later reinstall, they want their settings to be there. Providing the ability to remove settings is something that has to be explicitly implemented (because the installer infrastructure cannot track files created outside of the installer), so relatively few apps actually do that. Those that do pretty much always do it as an opt-in. In my 30 years of Windows use, I don't recall a single example to the contrary.
shepherdjerred 3y ago
Homebrew is one of my favorite pieces of software
blacksmith_tb 3y ago
Installing is varied on macOS, but there's certainly a default way to uninstall applications - just drag the application to the Trash. That said I have some sympathy for your complaint, since things that have you run an installer can sprinkle themselves all over the filesystem, and though they leave a trail, there isn't a standard way to reverse that (I find AppCleaner pretty handy for removing all the parts in those cases).