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Ask HN: Non-duopoly smart phone in Sweden?

64 points by dalke 3y ago

Are there people in Sweden or the EU working towards changing the laws to require critical services (banks, school, health care, and the like) to support privacy-oriented non-Apple/non-Google servers for smart phone use? I live in Sweden. I do not have a smart phone because I do not agree to the terms of service for the Apple Store or for Google Play, and have the luxury of not needing a smart phone for my life. It is getting harder because Swish (person-to-person payments) and Mobil BankID are so widely used, while BankID on a computer is not. My gym recently switched from an RFID card to phone QR code to enter, and I get the idea the chain doesn't want to continue to support the handful of people like me without a phone. A couple of days ago I learned about /e/OS and de-Googled phones. I like the privacy orientation, the EU location of company, and the fact that they haven't been fined 2 billion Euro for abusing monopoly power or found to violate EU privacy laws. I am willing to pay the 800 EUR for a Murena Fairphone 5 ... if I know it will work. However, BankID says they do not support /e/, and even if it works now, they say all risk is on me if does not work in the future. That is not a risk I want to take. I figure it's easier stay with what I know works than to backtrack in the future. This requires a political solution. I figure others are working on this. Are there any suggestions for who they are? Additionally, what laws are in place to require support for those without a smart phone? My barber dropped debit card support in favor of Swish, but still accepts cash. But places are increasingly going cash-free, which may mean Swish-only in the future.

dantheman 3y ago
[flagged]
- rospaya 3y ago
  Are you Swedish or have you lived there for some time? Do you have a deep understanding of Swedish politics or society? Just asking.
- cl3misch 3y ago
  I get your point, but I don't read OP like they are "forcing" anything on others. It is a fair question if there are still feasible ways to live without a smartphone, and HN is a suitable place for it. I am happy that such people exist, because I don't have the energy for that lifestyle these days.
- kilpikaarna 3y ago
  It's effectively the government, because the ID-via-your-banking-app system is required to identify yourself online, such as when dealing with government agencies, applying for permits and benefits, etc etc.
- CogitoCogito 3y ago
  I disagree fully with this sentiment. A legal solution is maybe the only realistic one. (Directed at the OP) That said, I don’t think the Swedish government cares much about people like you. I’m not sure how to make them change either. I wish you luck.
  - cl3misch 3y ago
    I get OP's desire to live without a smartphone and can relate a lot. But at the same time, at some point it is not feasible to enforce support for non-smartphone by law. You have to realize that your own freedom only goes so far. Society grants you the right to live without a smartphone/car/whatever, but it is your decision, and you can't force the rest of society to put up with it.
    - CogitoCogito 3y ago
      > But at the same time, at some point it is not feasible to enforce support for non-smartphone by law. What do you mean it’s not feasible? We could certainly enforce it if there were legal will. We enforce society to do many things it wouldn’t do if it weren’t for legislation.
    - dalke 3y ago
      Which is why it's a political question of how much control two large American companies should have in daily Swedish life. For example, I want the courts to be able to step in in case of a disagreement between me and Apple or Google, while the ToS says the company is free to decide. I want the law to prohibit the collection of user information other than what is needed for basic functionality. The Google Play ToS specifically says they will develop an advertising profile for my phone even if logged out, and I disagree with it. I also want the ToS for basic use for daily life to not change unless the government has agreed with the changes, similar to how my bank, power, and phone providers are regulated. I think I could agree to the ToS with those changes. I do not think it is beyond the pale to consider restrictions which are already applied to other services essential to daily life.
- zamfi 3y ago
  Stop using Internet forums to force your views/way of life on others. /s The issue isn’t the barber who’s asking for Swish. It’s Swish. This is one of those tricky cases where the service is quasi-governmental, a state-sanctioned monopoly service in partnership with the government, but not run by it. It’s not an unreasonable take to ask to opt-out of smartphone requirements for daily life. Alternatively, as a society make it clear that this is a requirement for commerce, and be explicit about what protections are in place against misuse/exploitation. It’s not reasonable for a smartphone to be a de facto necessity for life, but then privately controlled and with no discussion around safety, privacy, etc. — Privacy is a human right in many parts of the world. A government that essentially requires compromises to privacy via unconstrained third parties, in order to engage in basic market transactions, at the very least should be open about this requirement and discuss its trade-offs. Am I wrong?
- raddan 3y ago
  That's a strange way of viewing this. The OP is asking whether there are laws that protect them. If people are happy with Apple/Google, great, but if they are not, there are few alternatives. We should allow people who don't have/don't want smartphones to be able to participate in society.
thatcat 3y ago
Lineage and Graphene os (on pixel devices only)allows for degoogle versions of android. Even if you find hardware and an os that meets your requirements, how will you download gym and bank apps with out app store?
- dalke 3y ago
  On a Modena phone, that would be through the App Lounge. According to https://doc.e.foundation/support-topics/app_lounge.html https://doc.e.foundation/support-topics/app_lounge.html "As we want to offer users a way to access apps without tracking, we have an option to sign in to App Lounge Anonymously. With this option, we are able to offer access to commercial applications without requiring a personal Google account: it means no tracking! This option gives only access to the free catalog." That would work for me, but only if I know that BankID and my bank will support such a system, which I suspect they will not unless forced to by the government.
Freak_NL 3y ago
The easiest way to avoid Apple and most of Google seems to be to get a Google Pixel and install GrapheneOS on it. This works for me. The status quo sucks. Political solutions are probably years off, and likely entail making Apple and Google behave rather than mandate open standards and allow alternatives. We are stuck with this duopoly for now. (At least desktop and laptop computers don't suffer from this.) Alternative OSes on the smartphone are pointless if participating in digital society is your goal, because your friends and family will all use WhatsApp or something (this varies by country), and your bank will make banking with them harder if you don't use their app. Your government will increasingly rely on you owning a smartphone for digital access. In the Netherlands, digital access to healthcare records now by law requires that you either use the DigiD app on Android or IOS, or that you resort to begging for a paper copy; there will be nothing in between¹. When travelling, the apps for the larger public transport companies will have all the delays, re-routings, e-tickets, and other useful stuff. All of these require one of the two smartphone software stores, Apple's or Google's. At least with GrapheneOS you can limit the Play Store to that handful of apps you must grudgingly use. The rest can be gotten from the, excellent, FOSS F-Droid store (like OsmAnd~, OpenCamera, and OrganicMaps), so you can minimize having to deal with the noise and chaos of the Play Store. The Swish-thing sounds totally dystopic by the way. It's just by a quirk of fate that we don't have that trend in the Netherlands, where paying with a debit card is standard and smartphone payment systems basically just use that same system with a digital debit card. The war on cash is being waged here too though. 1: Use of DigiD, the Dutch digital identity system, without the app is not allowed for healthcare records, and existing healthcare systems are required to migrate to this. It is still allowed to login for other purposes like taxes using a password or SMS confirmation — for now.
- RhysabOweyn 3y ago
  Swish is only the surface of the dystopia that Sweden is these days. Wait until you find out how Swedish personal numbers (personnummers) work. The government, banks, insurance companies, landlords, etc. can pretty much deny anyone (including Swedish citizens) basic services if they don't have one.
  - piperswe 3y ago
CogitoCogito 3y ago
> Additionally, what laws are in place to require support for those without a smart phone? My barber dropped debit card support in favor of Swish, but still accepts cash. But places are increasingly going cash-free, which may mean Swish-only in the future. Does anyone know the advantages of only accepting Swish and no card? I thought EU interchange fees were pretty low and also thought EU merchants didn’t generally own/pay for the terminals as well. Only accepting Swish and cash is kind of a middle finger to visitors. Maybe the barber doesn’t care, but I’m wondering if it’s just laziness or just happens to much cheaper.
- KomoD 3y ago
  > Does anyone know the advantages of only accepting Swish and no card? It may be cheaper for the merchant, though I'm not aware what the card fees are. It's also just easier to do than accepting cards (especially if you are a small company, or just don't have an "actual" company at all) It's also instant, which I don't think card payments are.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    Yeah it makes me wonder about the relative cost/hassle of having Swish versus regular cards. With cash they could maybe avoid paying some taxes, but I don’t see how Swish gets them out of that.
  - mvip 3y ago
    It’s largely because of cost. A credit/debit card will cost the merchant ~1-4%, whereas Swish is essentially free. It’s also important to point out that Swish is a collaboration between the major Swedish banks.
    - KomoD 3y ago
      > whereas Swish is essentially free. It's free for individuals, companies pay per transaction (somewhere like 1.50 to 2.50 SEK depending on the bank, and usually a fee for the phone number)
nonrandomstring 3y ago
> do not support A few years ago I wrote a Times Higher article called something like "Your future is not supported" about exclusion in schools. "Not supported" is a seemingly innocuous but vicious expression. In almost all cases it has nothing to say about technical interoperability but is an opaque "layer 8" matter of "policy". Hence you are correct identifying it as a "political" problem. I also wrote in Digital Vegan about how digital lifestyle choices, such as prioritising security, or choosing not to support convicted criminal monopolists and gangsters, rank equally with other kinds of identity and observances. We no longer see signs in shops that say "No Blacks, No Irish" But today we have the equivalent with the language of "We do not support..." > This requires a political solution. Mandated service-level interoperability with the total elimination of all barriers to entry is the only way to go. It will happen. But it's a slow process. Obviously Europe is leading the way.
- cl3misch 3y ago
  > No Blacks, No Irish You can't decide to be black or Irish. You can very well decide to not have a smartphone. Which is a fine decision and I happen to support it. But it is a very different level of discrimination. Depending on your definition it might not be discrimination at all.
  - ysavir 3y ago
    A better comparison might be the requirement for brick-and-mortar businesses to accept cash as payment, such as when Sweetgreen went cashless. "Discrimination" might be the wrong word, but I think it's reasonable to mandate businesses not depend on clientele owning specific products that do not relate to the business's core service.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable to say that anyone seeking a business license for a physical premise must agree to accept cash, but there are very real business reasons to avoid cash payments. Cash handling can incur significant costs.
neelc 3y ago
In the US, you could still use cash or debit/credit cards. Not everyone uses mobile payments, my mom and brother use cards but I use Google Pay on my OnePlus 12. You could live a smartphone-free life in the US, but the US is super iPhone-heavy. In Germany, I know they prefer physical cash the last time I checked. Maybe move there?
- dalke 3y ago
  There is no way I am moving my family and company to Germany. Payment isn't really the issue, but the terms of service. When I visited Germany last fall, smartphone use was very common.
KomoD 3y ago
> Mobil BankID are so widely used, while BankID on a computer is not. Because it is convenient, but you are not forced to use Mobilt BankID because pretty much every service will still work with desktop bankid or the physical device (säkerhetsdosa) your bank gives you. > However, BankID says they do not support /e/, and even if it works now, they say all risk is on me if does not work in the future. That is not a risk I want to take. I figure it's easier stay with what I know works than to backtrack in the future. Yes, not officially supported, but if it's just Android it will most likely work just fine. If you moved here from another country then I can certainly say you picked the wrong country, everything is digital, there is no "privacy", and as you said cash is disappearing rapidly. Personally I quite like the bankid and swish system, it just makes my life so much easier.
- dalke 3y ago
  > pretty much every service will still work with desktop bankid or the physical device (säkerhetsdosa) your bank gives you When I applied for citizenship for my kids, it did not work for me to sign the form that my wife filled in. I got a letter a few days ago saying Swedbank was going to stop using paper for pension information and switch to digital. The site they gave only supports Mobil BankID. (They say they will add BankID på fil at some point.) I have tried to order things online which only support Mobil BankID, not BankID på fil. > if it's just Android it will most likely work just fine. That is a technical workaround to what requires a political solution. As BankID cranks up the security level, they are likely to prohibit alternative solutions unless required to by law, in the name of security, but also because it's easier. > I can certainly say you picked the wrong country Oh? Which country is better? What surprised me is the willingness to let a US company become the gatekeeper to daily life. The government should demand more oversight and more restrictions on what Google and Apple are allowed to do, as a matter of sovereignty, as both countries have proven averse to following EU regulations. I like Bank-Id and Swish too. I want to use them. I don't like the ToS I am required to agree to in order to use them, and I think the government could and should fix that.
  - KomoD 3y ago
    > I got a letter a few days ago saying Swedbank was going to stop using paper for pension information and switch to digital. The site they gave only supports Mobil BankID. (They say they will add BankID på fil at some point.) Ugh, typical Swedbank. Easily the worst bank in Sweden in my opinion...
kilpikaarna 3y ago
Sweden seems unique in that Swish is so pervasive for payments. Probably the european country most likely to attempt going cash-free. In Finland, Danske Bank's Mobilepay app is widely used for p2p and online payments, but not so much for businesses, with the exception of tiny ones like pop-up stores. And I think they just raised their rates. Online ID by banking app is pervasive, but doesn't require a smartphone if you bother your bank about it. If requested, Nordea gives you a Gemalto keypad and Danske Bank a small authenticator fob. I'm sure other banks have something similar, I'm just familiar with these two. I agree that this is an important issue. Your smartphone is effectively your primary ID online now and can also be used to track you as you carry it around. And more and more commerce and official matters are now primarily handled online. Constant small steps towards a cashless society, with potential for control via CBDCs and/or social credit scores.
- KomoD 3y ago
  > Sweden seems unique in that Swish is so pervasive for payments. Probably the european country most likely to attempt going cash-free. I believe so too, according to Internetstiftelsen, as of 2019 almost 80% of the population uses Swish.
  - dalke 3y ago
    Which may be why it's the first place where holdouts like me are being affected by the pressure to agree to the Apple or Google ToS in order to have a regular life.
Alifatisk 3y ago
The fact that you manage to meet you daily needs without a phone in Sweden is quite impressive.
- dalke 3y ago
  Well, I do have a phone. A CAT branded feature phone which makes a cute diesel truck engine sound when starting up. But I know what you mean. Yes, in that regard I've have the luxury of being self-employed and not caring about social media, games, or instant access to anything. I don't travel much, and usually to places I know. Every one I know got a smart phone because there were things they wanted from it, and they were okay not reading the ToS and simply accepting it. Including my wife, who is able to Swish things at flea markets and the like. But when alternatives are shut down, so that smart phones are the only option for daily life, rather than the easier option, that's when the ToS need to be regulated by the government to ensure citizen privacy and maintain access despite the whims or mistakes of the company operating that essential service.
hexointed 3y ago
My experience generally is that avoiding both Google and Apple is pretty difficult. I've been running both un-googled android and trying out the pinephone, and while it's generally been technically feasible to run BankID together with microG, it's definitely not officially supported, which you'll notice immediately as there's no official way to download the BankID apk. I also found out that setting up an new ID isn't currently working with microG when I bought a new phone a few weeks ago, so I'm still stuck with the old one for now. I'm also kind of at a loss for how to work this situation, living without Swish and BankId is certainly possible, but it's incredibly impractical, and continuously getting harder. I think we should be allowed to choose whether to agree to contracts written up by private companies, but most people don't seem to care.
- dalke 3y ago
  Is this something that you are willing to help me with? I want to right a letter to the appropriate ministry and political parties to raise awareness about the issue and see what their positions are. However, while my Swedish is decent, I can't express complex issues like this well, and my grammar is clearly that of an immigrant. I would like to work with someone like you, who understands the technology and has an interest in the technology, to help me write these letters.
  - hexointed 3y ago
    Yeah, maybe that's the way to go. I could be up for joining such a venture maybe
    - dalke 3y ago
      My email is my HN account name at dalkescientific.com.
mongol 3y ago
The political solution is in the works. A contactless card. I have not read it it is outlined here (Swedish) https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentliga-utredningar/2023/10/sou-202361/ https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentl...
- dalke 3y ago
  I am pleased to read how the report points out that BankID's lack of competition is an issue to be concerned about. One point of the id is "för att garantera att det finns en svensk e-legitimation som utfärdas till privatpersoner utan beaktande av rådande kommersiella villkor." - to guarantee there's Swedish electronic identification which is issued to private people without regard to prevailing commercial rules." It doesn't affect using Swish, being able to enter my gym, using an unstaffed kiosk which requires a mobile phone to enter, etc.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
elseleigh 3y ago
Sailfish OS is a non-duopoly option. There are community builds for a wide range of devices, and official licenses which support a smaller number of devices but include extras including an Android compatibility subsystem so you can run Android apps which don't have Google dependencies (ie, a majority of them). https://sailfishos.org/ https://sailfishos.org/ Lineage OS offers a Google-free Android operating system that also runs on a wide range of devices. https://lineageos.org/ https://lineageos.org/
- dalke 3y ago
  I understand these exist. However, that doesn't mean BankID or Swish will work on them, or will continue to work with them in the future. BankID says the risk is entirely mine. That is not a risk I want to take. I figure it's easier stay with what I know works than to backtrack in the future from a temporary technical workaround. This requires a political solution, not technical one. That such solutions exist can help inform the political decision. The government could require BankID, etc. to support additional options, and in the interest of national sovereignty could even provide funding for that goal. If the banks require a higher level of security on the servers, the government could provide those servers instead of a non-EU monopolist.
fsflover 3y ago
> I do not have a smart phone because I do not agree to the terms of service for the Apple Store or for Google Play, and have the luxury of not needing a smart phone for my life. Did you consider using a GNU/Linux phone (Librem 5 or Pinephone)? They run a desktop, libre OS, so you do not have to accept the duopoly's Terms and still you can scan QR codes whenever you want. It should be easier to argue with the government concerning other locked-to-duopoly services to run as web apps, and you wouldn't look like an anti-progress person to them. Sent from my Librem 5.
- eesmith 3y ago
  I have. I do not believe a technological work-around like this will work for the rest of my life. I can easily envision BankID in the future not working, due to "security concerns" about Google service emulation. I do not like modding. I still think the Swedish government should ensure the right of access and privacy.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    I wouldn't call that "a technological work-around" for the reason that many banks already require the duopoly. Instead, I see this as an easier way to explain to them the duopoly problem.
    - dalke 3y ago
      I don't think they care that alternatives exist, or that they can help diminish the duopoly. It's cheaper for them to support only two phone systems/ecosystems, and from discussions on the /e/ list I'm sure BankID knows these exist.
hagbard_c 3y ago
I live in Sweden as well and I do have several 'smart' devices but I never agreed to any term of service. How? By getting second-hand devices and installing LineageOS (and before that, Cyanogemmod) on them. No 'gapps' (Google apps), no play store. Instead of the play store I use Aurora Store to get BankID - yes, it complains about not having access to Google services but it works fine - which I keep disabled when not in use: # ls /data/data/com.termux/files/home/.shortcuts BankID:disable BankID:enable ... The ...:enable file for any given app is a hardlink to its ...:disable file. The contents are as follows: # cat /data/data/com.termux/files/home/.shortcuts/BankID:disable #!/data/data/com.termux/files/usr/bin/bash PACKAGE="com.bankid.bus" PATH="/data/data/com.termux/files/usr/bin:$PATH" command=$(echo "$0"|cut -d: -f2) pman () { action=$1 shift for package in $@; do sudo pm $action $package done } case $command in disable|enable) pman $command $PACKAGE ;; *) echo "command '$command' not supported" ;; esac exit 0 By keeping these files in the ~/.shortcuts directory they can be accessed through a Termux widget in the launcher which makes it trivial to enable/disable apps when needed.
- eesmith 3y ago
  I do not think you can guarantee that Mobile BankID will support a technical work-around like this for the rest of my life. What if next month it requires a Google Service? I read yesterday that Mozilla's location services will be shut down, which /e/ uses. What if BankID says they need an accurate location service for security reasons, and refuse to connect to a new alternative? What BankID switches to a encrypted service API which cannot be emulated? I don't like modding hardware nor want to figure out how to do this. I want my kids, when they get a phone when they are older, to have their right of access and privacy rights maintained by Swedish law without having to learn the tech first. The status quo won't change unless people start complaining.
  - hagbard_c 3y ago
    > I do not think you can guarantee that Mobile BankID will support a technical work-around like this for the rest of my life. No, it won't but then again - what will? App life time is measured in months, not in years let alone ´for the rest of your life'. I used to run BankID on my Linux laptop but that is no longer supported either. Things change all the time so it is what works here and now that is important. I will soon no longer be able to use BankID because I'm not a Swedish citizen and the new version insists on scanning a Swedish ID (driver's licence excluded since that does not contain an RFID transponder yet), let alone the fact that none of my devices has RFID capability. Location services can be spoofed if BankID insists on being nosy. There is no 'emulation' involved in running BankID, it just runs as intended on my devices (several of them, running different versions of LineageOS, all of them Google-free). I think we're talking past each other here. You want the future to be free from proprietary lock-ins. So do I. You are looking for a way to escape the 'duopoly' of Ggl and the fruit factory. So do I. These things do not happen without people acting in some way which is where we seem to be on different tracks. You want people to (I paraphrase) start complaining where I want them to start acting. Actions speak far louder than words after all. It also helps in giving access to services here and now instead of maybe, later. This is how Linux and the BSDs arrived on the scene as well, not because people complained but because they started acting. As to your children getting phones I'd say it is up to you to lead by example in the hope that some of what you show them sticks. Speaking from experience I can only say "good luck" seeing how as social pressure is a stronger force than parental advice. All of their friends and peers will have tons of privacy-leeching apps on their duopoly-devices which they also will want to have because that is how those peers communicate. Thus far I have been able to keep the worst offenders at bay by offering self-hosted alternatives which they now use, e.g. a self-hosted XMPP server with Conversations on their phones instead of Whatsapp/Telegram, self-hosted Nextcloud instead of Google, self-hosted Peertube servers (several for different types of content) instead of Youtube for publishing their own content, self-hosted mail instead of Gmail, etc. BankID is a special case because it ties a state-issued ID to commercial services (banks). I want the Swedish state - to be specific either Skatteverket (the tax department, responsible for the population register) or the police (responsible for issuing passports and ID cards) - to start issuing an alternative electronic ID which is not tied to any specific commercial service, i.e. which can be used with any device. It can be in the form of a transponder in the ID card, driver's licence or passport, in the form of something like a Yubikey or in that of a certificate which can be used in any browser but it should be useable as long as the user agent follows the required open standards. Something like the Dutch DigiD system [1] or the Belgian CSAM [2] can be used as a starting point. [1] https://www.digid.nl/en https://www.digid.nl/en [2] https://www.csam.be/en/index.html https://www.csam.be/en/index.html

nonrandomstring 3y ago

> You can't decide to be black or Irish. You can very well decide to not have a smartphone. I accept that distinction. But what makes you believe volition plays the role you imply (which I assume is that someone who decides something is somehow on a lower moral footing than someone without choice?) Many people "decide" to join particular religious denominations. Or as we accept more commonly today choose to "identify" as this or that, Do we/should we afford them any less respect? There's a good argument that a sane and reasonable person who decides something, should have more weight attached to that choice than the person for whom it is a matter of accident. For example, murder is a more serious crime than manslaughter, precisely because someone pre-meditated rather than killing by accident. I'm not suggesting you are not dismissing reasonable choice as if it were a lesser thing, just saying it's worth thinking about, because this is not philosophically/ethically clear. edit: There's also another quite strong and very different argument, but it's more complex: There's a line in John Fowles book on the subject of poverty where the protagonist says "Being poor is not something that we are, it's just something that happened to us" Many identity distinctions are not self-identifications but are imposed by another or group upon someone (or group). For example someone who was a proud Yugoslavian woke up one day with a "Bosnian" passport. Discrimination that come from "other-regarding" sources despite our choices, may feel as egregious as those of accident of birth.

plasticchris 3y ago
The Amish are a good example of making an antitechnology stance religious, and they get pretty good accommodation. IANAL but it seems like would be a serious discrimination suit if they were denied service due to a lack of smartphones. This is in the context of the USA, not sure how it would work in Europe.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  This is a good point. Some orthodox Jewish denominations find themselves in the same situation. But I'd actually like to argue against that. I wrote here [0] that we ought not conflate technology morals with religion. It's important to give room to traditional religious beliefs, reasonable lifestyle choices and secular ethical stances. All are important. Saying this as someone who is a practising Christian humanist but was also once an active secular humanist/rationalist-sceptic. For most of us it would be best (in the face of all sorts of unknowns coming down the pipe in the guise of AI etc) to establish the primacy of secular ethical choice around technology. I don't boycott Big-Tech because "Jesus told me to". It's because they're dirty criminals and gangsters who I don't want to give money to. I don't go without a smartphone because "God forbids it". It's because I fundamentally object to being under 24/7 surveillance and having to carry "papers" like in some vicious tinpot dictatorship. These are just common, secular civic and personal moral choices. I am surprised that we aren't doing more to stand up for them, and very surprised that Sweden (and Finland and Estonia) of all places have such a blind-spot around social rights and respect for different opinions and lifestyles. [0] https://techwrongs.org/2023/03/06/microsoft-is-not-a-religious-choice/ https://techwrongs.org/2023/03/06/microsoft-is-not-a-religio...
  - dalke 3y ago
    My issue (OP here) is that I have read and agreed to every ToS I've been given over the last few decades. I rarely upgrade macOS because of how long it take to read the new license. I use Firefox because I don't need to read the license. In one notable case I told a client I couldn't accept their contract because it was incomplete. "What's the problem? Hundreds of other companies have accepted it." "It says that I also agree to the terms at $URL but that URL doesn't work." They told me the correct URL and I was able to sign it. (Real B2B contracts are pleasingly fair, when both companies are on even terms.) I cannot agree with the Apple ToS because I do not want to give them the sole right to shut down my account. If a mobile phone is critical for daily life, then the government must be able to overrule Apple's whim or mistake, and do so quickly. If there were true competition, with many alternatives and the easy and guaranteed right to transfer to another provider, then I would also not have a problem. This is nothing to do with religion, or distrust of technology, but of who has the right to control my daily life. I trust the government of Sweden far more than I do the commercial interest of Google or Apple, who have demonstrated they are not eager participants in EU laws regarding privacy and monopoly.
    - nonrandomstring 3y ago
      Totally get you. Deeper problem: The average Western adult does not have the capacity to agree to most legal instruments (EULAs. contracts) used around digital technology today. I include myself as a computer scientist who even read a bit of law at university and has helped draft and analyse contracts. No "reasonable person" is expected to read them. Tacit and coerced "agreement" to patently egregious terms is already normalised, and this makes a complete mockery of law in our culture. At some point, if we want to rescue "the law" we must change the way people relate to technology legally.
      - dalke 3y ago
        Oh, I totally agree! When I started consulting in the 1990s I got a NoLo Press book which clearly and helpfully explained contract terms for computer consulting. I've since had a couple of decades of reading contracts to do consulting work. My knowledge does not go outside that domain, but it's still fun to read things like how the storage unit we rented prohibits keeping farm animals in it. By the way, HUGE shout out to the OmniGroup, who have the absolute best commercial+proprietary license agreement I've ever read. They even allow some reverse engineering, just not to avoid the licensing system. That strongly influenced my own proprietary license to allow the same. When I have these discussion with the government and political parties, I will be asking if the high school curriculum is being updated to include more training in reading ToS, and to ask if it's really reasonable to be personally bound to terms that no one reads. Personally I think there needs to be the equivalent of the Uniform Commercial Code, though to harmonize, standardize, and regulate app service ToS. But that's a wild idea that I cannot pursue, only wonder about. All I can focus on is that we should not require the permission of Apple or Google to be a citizen living a simple life in Sweden.

dalke 3y ago
I don't mean app time, I mean officially support the option of using a privacy-oriented phone, along with any required services, through an app acquisition and update system which is not significantly more difficult than the current distribution. I want that company to be as equally subject to privacy laws as my mobile phone provider, my internet service provider, or my electricity provider. > I will soon no longer be able to use BankID because I'm not a Swedish citizen and the new version insists on scanning a Swedish ID I am a Swedish citizen and I do not own a device which is able to scan a Swedish ID. What are they going to do? Force me to buy a smartphone with terms of service I do not agree with? Shut off my bank services? Have you gone to the bank and said that you are going to get rid of your smartphone, and want to switch to BankID on a file? I'm curious if that's even a valid option. It seems everyone who has a smartphone is so addicted to it that they can't give it up. > Actions speak far louder than words after all. It also helps in giving access to services here and now instead of maybe, later. People have been using your suggestion for years. Has it improved the situation? No. You said BankID no longer works on Linux (even with Wine?). Because the rejoinder has been "if you don't like it, you don't need a smart phone." For you, a smart phone was important enough that you accepted the risk of future problems. For me, a smart phone is not that important, and I don't want to accept the risk of future problems. It isn't like what I'm asking is impossible - there are existing phone providers with terms I can agree to, but only if I know that it's a viable long-term solution. Which it isn't now, as you've said. It requires forcing Swedbank, etc. to support alternative, which I can't do but the state might. Especially since the state want to have a contactless id card, which mongol mentioned at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39727561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39727561 . The document is clear that depending on commercial interests like BankID is one of their concerns. Or Sweden can pass laws saying that mobile store operators selling in Sweden must follow strict privacy laws against targeted marketing and advertising, and that privacy cannot be opted out. Or Sweden can pass laws which say businesses must have comparable options for those who do not have a smart phone. (For all I know, that already exists.)