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Especially since it genuinely is. I’m not claiming the U.S. is better in an objective sense but clearly the two countries are in opposition to each other. Chi

Especially since it genuinely is. I’m not claiming the U.S. is better in an objective sense but clearly the two countries are in opposition to each other. China clearly would love a divided U.S.

squigz 3y ago
The US loves a divided US, too
- tmaly 3y ago
  It is in the citizens interest that the do gooders be divided so they get nothing done.
- skhunted 3y ago
  Consider the possibility that this due to influence by foreign controlled bots and targeted information warfare against American citizens.
  - dr_kiszonka 3y ago
    It could be both a) foreign influence and b) the media and politicians benefiting from polarisation.
    - squigz 3y ago
      It is indeed. Yet a foreign government can't pass laws curtailing the freedom and invading the privacy of a citizen on their own country's soil.
krapp 3y ago
I tend to mistrust the motives of the government warning me to fear the nebulous influence of commie spies lurking around every corner and that I should accept government sanction and censorship to protect me from their sinister mind control algorithms than I do the red menace. Dissent is good. It's a vital component in any free society. The first two amendments of the US Constitution exist to preserve the right of the people to dissent, to the point of violence. Theoretically. Legally you can't just shoot a politician in the head, however cool Thomas Jefferson might have been with it. Point being, the US is supposed to be a society in which instability and dissent is always present, threatening but hopefully never toppling the edifice. Of course that requires an educated and informed populace capable of discerning between critical thinking and cynicism, likely truth and horseshit, and a free press that isn't wholly subservient to corporate and government interests, and a lot of civic and cultural traits the US lacks. But that's what we should be focusing on, and that remains the case regardless of whether one is talking about Chinese propaganda or American. It's all the same. Over half of the anti-vaxx conspiracy content spread across social media during COVID came from only twelve people[0], one of whom was a Kennedy. Mind you, i'm pro deplatforming - as long as it's the platform's decision. Platforms should absolutely be free to reject whatever they like on whatever terms they wish, freedom of speech doesn't compel anyone to spread that speech against their will. But when the government steps in and says it's on my side, I assume that eventually they'll just want to send me to the camps. [0]https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-doze...
- jfengel 3y ago
  and a lot of civic and cultural traits the US lacks Indeed, that feels like the root of the matter. If men were angels we wouldn't need laws. Real people are messy, and bumper-sticker principles don't adequately characterize us well enough to design a set of pragmatic laws. A real compromise leaves everyone mad, and given how mad we are already I'm at a loss to suggest how to proceed. I'll be honest that I'm pretty angry myself; I think we've allowed ourselves to be taken in by some pathetically obvious propaganda. I wish we were at least talking about subtle and interesting problems. Instead we seem to be gleefully re-litigating the obvious.
- skhunted 3y ago
  As with most things in life moderation is essential. Dissent is good if it isn’t too extreme. Exceptions abound. Hence the intractability of the current threat to the U.S. Disinformation will win out. Look at how many people stupidly don’t vaccinate their kids against polio now. The evidence is so overwhelming that the vaccine is beneficial and good for society that no reasonable person can possibly be opposed to it being mandated. If something as obviously beneficial as the polio vaccine can be made into a divisive issue then there is no hope.

Especially since it genuinely is. I’m not claiming the U.S. is better in an objective sense but clearly the two countries are in opposition to each other. China clearly would love a divided U.S.

squigz 3y ago

The US loves a divided US, too

tmaly 3y ago
It is in the citizens interest that the do gooders be divided so they get nothing done.
skhunted 3y ago
Consider the possibility that this due to influence by foreign controlled bots and targeted information warfare against American citizens.
- dr_kiszonka 3y ago
  It could be both a) foreign influence and b) the media and politicians benefiting from polarisation.
  - squigz 3y ago
    It is indeed. Yet a foreign government can't pass laws curtailing the freedom and invading the privacy of a citizen on their own country's soil.

krapp 3y ago

I tend to mistrust the motives of the government warning me to fear the nebulous influence of commie spies lurking around every corner and that I should accept government sanction and censorship to protect me from their sinister mind control algorithms than I do the red menace. Dissent is good. It's a vital component in any free society. The first two amendments of the US Constitution exist to preserve the right of the people to dissent, to the point of violence. Theoretically. Legally you can't just shoot a politician in the head, however cool Thomas Jefferson might have been with it. Point being, the US is supposed to be a society in which instability and dissent is always present, threatening but hopefully never toppling the edifice. Of course that requires an educated and informed populace capable of discerning between critical thinking and cynicism, likely truth and horseshit, and a free press that isn't wholly subservient to corporate and government interests, and a lot of civic and cultural traits the US lacks. But that's what we should be focusing on, and that remains the case regardless of whether one is talking about Chinese propaganda or American. It's all the same. Over half of the anti-vaxx conspiracy content spread across social media during COVID came from only twelve people[0], one of whom was a Kennedy. Mind you, i'm pro deplatforming - as long as it's the platform's decision. Platforms should absolutely be free to reject whatever they like on whatever terms they wish, freedom of speech doesn't compel anyone to spread that speech against their will. But when the government steps in and says it's on my side, I assume that eventually they'll just want to send me to the camps. [0]https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-doze...

jfengel 3y ago
and a lot of civic and cultural traits the US lacks Indeed, that feels like the root of the matter. If men were angels we wouldn't need laws. Real people are messy, and bumper-sticker principles don't adequately characterize us well enough to design a set of pragmatic laws. A real compromise leaves everyone mad, and given how mad we are already I'm at a loss to suggest how to proceed. I'll be honest that I'm pretty angry myself; I think we've allowed ourselves to be taken in by some pathetically obvious propaganda. I wish we were at least talking about subtle and interesting problems. Instead we seem to be gleefully re-litigating the obvious.
skhunted 3y ago
As with most things in life moderation is essential. Dissent is good if it isn’t too extreme. Exceptions abound. Hence the intractability of the current threat to the U.S. Disinformation will win out. Look at how many people stupidly don’t vaccinate their kids against polio now. The evidence is so overwhelming that the vaccine is beneficial and good for society that no reasonable person can possibly be opposed to it being mandated. If something as obviously beneficial as the polio vaccine can be made into a divisive issue then there is no hope.