4 ms·

/s mate

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
I know. I’m just pointing out that an uncontrolled immigration policy is in effect here, and it shifted power to labour. On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Firstly, it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act. Uncontrolled immigration (bringing unlimited workers from outside the EU without restrictions) is what companies would actually want. Secondly, Mercedes moved to Hungary for cheap labor a while ago, and now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures Mercedes is now bitching that the cheap labor they came here for is no longer as cheap as they want it to be. If it wants to reattain those factory workers in Hungary they should pay competitively similarly to how they're retaining workers at their fabs in Germany. Why haven't they? It's not a labor shortage, it's sucker/exploitable worker shortage. >On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation. Do you see what you're saying here: "If labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand, then they'll have to be replaced by robots if they can't be replaced by cheaper immigrant workers". The workers' rights and benefits we enjoy today in the west, especially in Europe, didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act What is the difference? If Schengen were extended to the world, wouldn’t one describe that as uncontrolled movement? > now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures(probably to Germany What effect do you think that had on German wages? The analogy is Germany:EU::EU:world. > labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand You don’t find it curious that the automation is happening in the low-cost plants first? There are a number of policy differences between Germany and Hungary, from collective-bargaining to legal stability. What’s interesting is how this case lets us isolate how Hungary’s migration policies undermine their workers in an unexpected way. > didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns We agree. My point is a collectively-bargaining Hungarian auto workforce would benefit from automating repetitive tasks (or giving them to non-Europeans). This shouldn’t be a conflict or confrontation. It’s turned into one due to Hungary’s politics redirecting anger at virtually non-existent migrants [1]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hungary-devoid-of-immigrants-the-new-arrival-of-foreign-workers-raises-tensions_6297592_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hu...
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >What is the difference? If you don't understand(or intentionally choose to ignore) the difference, rules and impact between hiring EU workers and non-EU workers, you are not arguing in good faith (against HN rules) and I will have to end the conversation here. >What effect do you think that had on German wages? The analogy is Germany:EU::EU:world. Germany and Hungary are EU members with equal rights. If Germans didn't want this they had the chance to veto Hungary's EU membership a long time ago, and unions in Germany could have also have a word on this, BEFORE it happened. >My point is a collectively-bargaining Hungarian auto workforce would benefit from automating repetitive tasks (or giving them to non-Europeans). How would that benefit Hungary? If nobody in Hungary wants to work for those jobs Mercedes has, it means they must be shit as workers there have better options. How are you fixing this by importing even more desperate and low skilled people willing to low-ball themselves to take shit jobs? How does that benefit society? We're not talking about importing caretakers, teachers, doctors, nurses or builders, professions that society actually needs. We're talking about cheap exploitable workers for someone else's factory. Businesses wanting that can fuck off. Automation is way better than importing unskilled desperate migrants willing to lowball themselves for crappy jobs. Automation builds valuable knowledge and skilled well paying jobs (look at Switzerland). What Mercedes wants here, being a perpetual sweatshop dependent on having the cheapest possible labor is not a good strategy for a western economy.

/s mate

I know. I’m just pointing out that an uncontrolled immigration policy is in effect here, and it shifted power to labour. On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Firstly, it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act. Uncontrolled immigration (bringing unlimited workers from outside the EU without restrictions) is what companies would actually want. Secondly, Mercedes moved to Hungary for cheap labor a while ago, and now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures Mercedes is now bitching that the cheap labor they came here for is no longer as cheap as they want it to be. If it wants to reattain those factory workers in Hungary they should pay competitively similarly to how they're retaining workers at their fabs in Germany. Why haven't they? It's not a labor shortage, it's sucker/exploitable worker shortage. >On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation. Do you see what you're saying here: "If labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand, then they'll have to be replaced by robots if they can't be replaced by cheaper immigrant workers". The workers' rights and benefits we enjoy today in the west, especially in Europe, didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act What is the difference? If Schengen were extended to the world, wouldn’t one describe that as uncontrolled movement? > now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures(probably to Germany What effect do you think that had on German wages? The analogy is Germany:EU::EU:world. > labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand You don’t find it curious that the automation is happening in the low-cost plants first? There are a number of policy differences between Germany and Hungary, from collective-bargaining to legal stability. What’s interesting is how this case lets us isolate how Hungary’s migration policies undermine their workers in an unexpected way. > didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns We agree. My point is a collectively-bargaining Hungarian auto workforce would benefit from automating repetitive tasks (or giving them to non-Europeans). This shouldn’t be a conflict or confrontation. It’s turned into one due to Hungary’s politics redirecting anger at virtually non-existent migrants [1]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hungary-devoid-of-immigrants-the-new-arrival-of-foreign-workers-raises-tensions_6297592_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hu...
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >What is the difference? If you don't understand(or intentionally choose to ignore) the difference, rules and impact between hiring EU workers and non-EU workers, you are not arguing in good faith (against HN rules) and I will have to end the conversation here. >What effect do you think that had on German wages? The analogy is Germany:EU::EU:world. Germany and Hungary are EU members with equal rights. If Germans didn't want this they had the chance to veto Hungary's EU membership a long time ago, and unions in Germany could have also have a word on this, BEFORE it happened. >My point is a collectively-bargaining Hungarian auto workforce would benefit from automating repetitive tasks (or giving them to non-Europeans). How would that benefit Hungary? If nobody in Hungary wants to work for those jobs Mercedes has, it means they must be shit as workers there have better options. How are you fixing this by importing even more desperate and low skilled people willing to low-ball themselves to take shit jobs? How does that benefit society? We're not talking about importing caretakers, teachers, doctors, nurses or builders, professions that society actually needs. We're talking about cheap exploitable workers for someone else's factory. Businesses wanting that can fuck off. Automation is way better than importing unskilled desperate migrants willing to lowball themselves for crappy jobs. Automation builds valuable knowledge and skilled well paying jobs (look at Switzerland). What Mercedes wants here, being a perpetual sweatshop dependent on having the cheapest possible labor is not a good strategy for a western economy.