4 ms·

You are not quite right about pipelined design being faster. At least, not without substantial effort. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor https

by thesz 3y ago

You are not quite right about pipelined design being faster. At least, not without substantial effort. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor "The R2000 is a 32-bit microprocessor chip set developed by MIPS Computer Systems that implemented the MIPS I instruction set architecture (ISA)..." "The R2000 was available in 8.3, 12.5 and 15 MHz grades..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I386 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I386 "The Intel 386, originally released as 80386 and later renamed i386, is a 32-bit microprocessor introduced in 1985..." "Max. CPU clock rate: 12.5 MHz to 40 MHz" As you can see, 80386 was released a year earlier than R2000 and was about 1.5 times faster than MIPS implementation from the start. The critical path is, usually, in addition/subtraction, which should be complete in one cycle in both 80386 and in R2000. To pipeline addition you need a superpipelined CPU, one that has several stages for computation. Even seemingly simple computation of condition codes can make clock cycle 10% longer (SPARC vs MIPS) if your CPU is just simply pipelined. BTW, some Pentiums did computed 32-bit addition in two cycles, all in name of higher clock frequencies.

abainbridge 3y ago
Interesting. An R2000 did run programs faster than a 80386, right? This was a few years before my time. From a quick google now, it looks like the R2000 was about 3x better than the 80386 at Dhrystone MIPS/MHz. I guess an accurate comparison of how the R2000 and 80386 spent they gate budget and what they got in return would involve a lot of detail. I remember my compsci professor giving us the computer architecture course in about 1997, and he dispaired at how all the clever RISC stuff in the Patterson and Hennessey seemed irrelevant when Intel could just throw money at the implementation (and fab, I guess) and produce competitive chips despite their (allegedly) inferior architecture.
- thesz 3y ago
  My point is that you cannot get design much faster in terms of clock frequency by just pipelining. Pipeline unrolls state machine and overlaps different executions of the state machines. But the bottleneck, which is addition, is there in all designs and you need additional effort to break it. (also MIPS has [i]ntelocked [p]ipeline [s]tages - that "IPS" in MIPS; I implemented it, I know - exception in execution should inform other stages about failure) By the 1997 Intel has already bought Elbrus II design team, lead by Pentkovski [1]. That Pentkovski guy made Elbrus 2 a superscalar CPU with a stack machine front-end. E.g., Elbrus 2 executed stack operations in a superscalar fashion. You can entertain yourself by figuring out how complex or simple can that be. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Pentkovski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Pentkovski So at the time your professor complained about Intel's inferior architecture being faster, that inferior architecture implementation has a translation unit inside it to translate x86 opcodes into superscalar-ready uops.
  - peterfirefly 3y ago
    Addition was not the bottle neck for the 386. It had a FO4 delay of 80+ per clock. An adder is much faster. Maybe you meant that it was (one, just one!, of many of) the bottle neck(s) in an optimized implementation?
    - thesz 3y ago
      > Addition was not the bottle neck for the 386. It is a bottleneck for MIPS, SPARC, Alpha and not for 386. How so?
      - peterfirefly 3y ago
        The 386 wastes so many FO4 gate delays on other things. I thought I made that extremely clear?
        thesz 3y ago
        Can you elaborate on where the delays came from?
  - abainbridge 3y ago
    I think the Wikipedia page [1] agrees with your main point. I said pipelining allowed you to increase the clock rate, which isn't the best thing to say. The wiki page says, "instruction pipelining is a technique for implementing instruction-level parallelism within a single processor. Pipelining attempts to keep every part of the processor busy with some instruction by dividing incoming instructions into a series of sequential steps (the eponymous "pipeline") performed by different processor units with different parts of instructions processed in parallel." And, "This arrangement lets the CPU complete an instruction on each clock cycle. It is common for even-numbered stages to operate on one edge of the square-wave clock, while odd-numbered stages operate on the other edge. This allows more CPU throughput than a multicycle computer at a given clock rate, but may increase latency due to the added overhead of the pipelining process itself." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_pipelining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_pipelining
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  And the R2000 was implemented in 2µm and the (early) 386 was implemented in 1.5µm. Double-metal for both. Didn't bother to look up die size.
smcin 3y ago
It's not apples-to-apples to compare raw clock rates between semiconductor processes; Intel's 386 was intially fabbed on 1.5μ then shrunk to 1.0μ process (Intel CHMOS III and IV), whereas MIPS R2000 was 2.0μ, fabless and relied on Sierra, Toshiba, then in 1987 LSI, IDT and other licensees [0][1]. Back in the 1980s/90s/2000s, Intel was consistently a process generation or two ahead of competitors. That was one of their main sources of advantage. Just imagine if MIPS had been able to fab on Intel process. [0]: https://www.righto.com/2023/10/intel-386-die-versions.html https://www.righto.com/2023/10/intel-386-die-versions.html [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor
- thesz 3y ago
  And you are also confirm that in order to have higher clock frequency you need more than just pipelining. Thank you. I also think that 1.5x difference in clock speeds cannot be directly attributed to the difference between node size (lambda): difference in lambdas 1.3(3)=2.0/1.5 at the introduction of the 80386 and R2000 is noticeably less than 1.47=12.5/8.5.
  - smcin 3y ago
    Smaller transistors are faster, but the relationship between clock frequency and 1/feature size isn't necessarily linear like you're assuming. https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/27875/moores-law-and-clock-speed https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/27875/moores-law-and-...
    - thesz 3y ago
      My assumption is that speedup is less than lambda's ratio.

by thesz 3y ago

abainbridge 3y ago

Interesting. An R2000 did run programs faster than a 80386, right? This was a few years before my time. From a quick google now, it looks like the R2000 was about 3x better than the 80386 at Dhrystone MIPS/MHz. I guess an accurate comparison of how the R2000 and 80386 spent they gate budget and what they got in return would involve a lot of detail. I remember my compsci professor giving us the computer architecture course in about 1997, and he dispaired at how all the clever RISC stuff in the Patterson and Hennessey seemed irrelevant when Intel could just throw money at the implementation (and fab, I guess) and produce competitive chips despite their (allegedly) inferior architecture.

thesz 3y ago
My point is that you cannot get design much faster in terms of clock frequency by just pipelining. Pipeline unrolls state machine and overlaps different executions of the state machines. But the bottleneck, which is addition, is there in all designs and you need additional effort to break it. (also MIPS has [i]ntelocked [p]ipeline [s]tages - that "IPS" in MIPS; I implemented it, I know - exception in execution should inform other stages about failure) By the 1997 Intel has already bought Elbrus II design team, lead by Pentkovski [1]. That Pentkovski guy made Elbrus 2 a superscalar CPU with a stack machine front-end. E.g., Elbrus 2 executed stack operations in a superscalar fashion. You can entertain yourself by figuring out how complex or simple can that be. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Pentkovski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Pentkovski So at the time your professor complained about Intel's inferior architecture being faster, that inferior architecture implementation has a translation unit inside it to translate x86 opcodes into superscalar-ready uops.
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  Addition was not the bottle neck for the 386. It had a FO4 delay of 80+ per clock. An adder is much faster. Maybe you meant that it was (one, just one!, of many of) the bottle neck(s) in an optimized implementation?
  - thesz 3y ago
    > Addition was not the bottle neck for the 386. It is a bottleneck for MIPS, SPARC, Alpha and not for 386. How so?
    - peterfirefly 3y ago
      The 386 wastes so many FO4 gate delays on other things. I thought I made that extremely clear?
      - thesz 3y ago
        Can you elaborate on where the delays came from?
- abainbridge 3y ago
  I think the Wikipedia page [1] agrees with your main point. I said pipelining allowed you to increase the clock rate, which isn't the best thing to say. The wiki page says, "instruction pipelining is a technique for implementing instruction-level parallelism within a single processor. Pipelining attempts to keep every part of the processor busy with some instruction by dividing incoming instructions into a series of sequential steps (the eponymous "pipeline") performed by different processor units with different parts of instructions processed in parallel." And, "This arrangement lets the CPU complete an instruction on each clock cycle. It is common for even-numbered stages to operate on one edge of the square-wave clock, while odd-numbered stages operate on the other edge. This allows more CPU throughput than a multicycle computer at a given clock rate, but may increase latency due to the added overhead of the pipelining process itself." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_pipelining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_pipelining
peterfirefly 3y ago
And the R2000 was implemented in 2µm and the (early) 386 was implemented in 1.5µm. Double-metal for both. Didn't bother to look up die size.

smcin 3y ago

It's not apples-to-apples to compare raw clock rates between semiconductor processes; Intel's 386 was intially fabbed on 1.5μ then shrunk to 1.0μ process (Intel CHMOS III and IV), whereas MIPS R2000 was 2.0μ, fabless and relied on Sierra, Toshiba, then in 1987 LSI, IDT and other licensees [0][1]. Back in the 1980s/90s/2000s, Intel was consistently a process generation or two ahead of competitors. That was one of their main sources of advantage. Just imagine if MIPS had been able to fab on Intel process. [0]: https://www.righto.com/2023/10/intel-386-die-versions.html https://www.righto.com/2023/10/intel-386-die-versions.html [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2000_microprocessor

thesz 3y ago
And you are also confirm that in order to have higher clock frequency you need more than just pipelining. Thank you. I also think that 1.5x difference in clock speeds cannot be directly attributed to the difference between node size (lambda): difference in lambdas 1.3(3)=2.0/1.5 at the introduction of the 80386 and R2000 is noticeably less than 1.47=12.5/8.5.
- smcin 3y ago
  Smaller transistors are faster, but the relationship between clock frequency and 1/feature size isn't necessarily linear like you're assuming. https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/27875/moores-law-and-clock-speed https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/27875/moores-law-and-...
  - thesz 3y ago
    My assumption is that speedup is less than lambda's ratio.