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Strange to come up with a metaphor for this like ‘the Montreal problem’ but not have its proposed solution remotely resemble the ‘Montreal solution’. Does Montr

Strange to come up with a metaphor for this like ‘the Montreal problem’ but not have its proposed solution remotely resemble the ‘Montreal solution’. Does Montreal have a style czar? I don’t think so. Nor would most people say it needs one. To the extent that these problems exist, they are per codebase problems and allowing per codebase solutions is fine. Languages can support multiple idiolects where different idioms are prevalent. Competent developers fluent in a language might need to learn to code switch - the way data scientists speak Python behind closed doors calls for a wholly different level of formality from the way Django coders might speak it. C# devs who build enterprise apps on Azure don’t use the same inflections that their fellow C# speakers building games in Unity use. The important thing is to read the room and choose how you express yourself in a way that’s appropriate for the people you’re with. Are these people going to appreciate your fluent continuation passing style free expression? Or are they more comfortable if you express yourself in classes and methods?

ajcp 3y ago
Beyond even that he takes a non-unique urban trait of Montreal and titles it a problem without ever explaining why it's a problem for Montreal, much less how Montreal did or did not solve for it in any way that is analogous to his Style Czar.
- IggleSniggle 3y ago
  Exactly. The Montreal "problem" doesn't sound like a problem at all, but rather a defining feature that gives Montreal a distinctive and worthwhile character...part of what makies it a destination city for people of a wide variety of backgrounds. Isn't this what we call "dynamism" and frequently a highly desired trait for a group?
- simlevesque 3y ago
  He talks about the Montreal effect, and says it's a problem when it shows up in code. The title was changed, the one here on HN is wrong. He doesn't say it's a problem for Montreal, so he doesn't need to explain that. As a montrealer I think thee effect isn't really present here but whatever, if it helps him make a point.
  - ajcp 3y ago
    > He doesn't say it's a problem for Montreal, so he doesn't need to explain that. He certainly did before he changed the title and article. It would be nice if the author at least had a note on why and when he updated the article...
  - jameshart 3y ago
    The section that delves into the ‘effect’ is under the heading: > The Montreal C++ Problem And indicates that having old ‘stuff’ around when new ‘stuff’ arrives is the cause of ‘the Montreal Problem’: > C++20 had a lot of good ideas, but lots of code predates that standard. And so drift occurs. You either don’t adopt the new way or you end up with a code base with more than one style. If you do the latter, you end up with the Montreal Problem. (Emphasis mine) The next section makes it seem like the ‘problem’ is about culture and language rather than, say, architecture: > If you are doing work in the old-Montreal code section. It’s like a different dialect. You now need to know multiple dialects of the language and when and where to apply each one. And then suggests that the new-Montreal old-Montreal problem is a divergence of community, which is ‘splitting’ people ‘apart’: > So, how do you evolve a language without splitting it apart? This gets trickier with a whole community involved. ... And with that, the community fractures. Overlaid with the idea that the solution is a ‘czar’ of some sort the metaphor feels clumsy and kind of inappropriate.
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ajcp 3y ago

Beyond even that he takes a non-unique urban trait of Montreal and titles it a problem without ever explaining why it's a problem for Montreal, much less how Montreal did or did not solve for it in any way that is analogous to his Style Czar.

IggleSniggle 3y ago
Exactly. The Montreal "problem" doesn't sound like a problem at all, but rather a defining feature that gives Montreal a distinctive and worthwhile character...part of what makies it a destination city for people of a wide variety of backgrounds. Isn't this what we call "dynamism" and frequently a highly desired trait for a group?
simlevesque 3y ago
He talks about the Montreal effect, and says it's a problem when it shows up in code. The title was changed, the one here on HN is wrong. He doesn't say it's a problem for Montreal, so he doesn't need to explain that. As a montrealer I think thee effect isn't really present here but whatever, if it helps him make a point.
- ajcp 3y ago
  > He doesn't say it's a problem for Montreal, so he doesn't need to explain that. He certainly did before he changed the title and article. It would be nice if the author at least had a note on why and when he updated the article...
- jameshart 3y ago
  The section that delves into the ‘effect’ is under the heading: > The Montreal C++ Problem And indicates that having old ‘stuff’ around when new ‘stuff’ arrives is the cause of ‘the Montreal Problem’: > C++20 had a lot of good ideas, but lots of code predates that standard. And so drift occurs. You either don’t adopt the new way or you end up with a code base with more than one style. If you do the latter, you end up with the Montreal Problem. (Emphasis mine) The next section makes it seem like the ‘problem’ is about culture and language rather than, say, architecture: > If you are doing work in the old-Montreal code section. It’s like a different dialect. You now need to know multiple dialects of the language and when and where to apply each one. And then suggests that the new-Montreal old-Montreal problem is a divergence of community, which is ‘splitting’ people ‘apart’: > So, how do you evolve a language without splitting it apart? This gets trickier with a whole community involved. ... And with that, the community fractures. Overlaid with the idea that the solution is a ‘czar’ of some sort the metaphor feels clumsy and kind of inappropriate.

deleted 3y ago

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