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Why the TikTok Ban Is So Dangerous

6 points by danboarder 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aramova 3y ago
Bolt take considering this is no different than what China has been doing to the west for decades. https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/14/tech/china-reactions-tiktok-potential-ban-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/14/tech/china-reactions-tiktok-p...
- danboarder 3y ago
  My take - if the US is still the "land of the free" then the government should not be banning citizens access to apps. The idea of politicians in the house and senate (or president) deciding which apps to ban from the app stores will likely lead to similar actions against websites, from the article: As written, any “website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application” that is “determined by the President to present a significant threat to the National Security of the United States” is covered. "National security" is a nebulous term that feels like an excuse to ban competitors on behalf of lobbyists at Meta or elsewhere, this is not in the interest of the majority of citizens.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > My take - if the US is still the "land of the free" then the government should not be banning citizens access to apps. That's nonsense when phrased so broadly. I mean, your condition would even include apps that, say, drained the user's bank account without authorization. A twee libertarian might insist on that, but practically it can't work (sort of like arachno-capitalism, the Ununoctium of political ideologies). > As written, any “website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application” that is “determined by the President to present a significant threat to the National Security of the United States” is covered. You've omitted the "foreign adversary controlled application" language from your quote, which is an important qualification and the omission is misleading and inflammatory.
    - danboarder 3y ago
      To your last point, China is on that list though (as a "foreign adversary"). In my view this is a political designation as China is actually our deeply integrated trade partner, manufacturing most of the hardware we are all discussing this on, it seems absurd to label a trade partner as a "foreign adversary" IMO. To your earlier point, of course if an app is "draining the user's bank account without authorization" Apple or Google will block them, but that is not the job of politicians in Washington.
      - tivert 3y ago
        > In my view this is a political designation as China is actually our deeply integrated trade partner, manufacturing most of the hardware we are all discussing this on, it seems absurd to label a trade partner as a "foreign adversary" IMO. It's nonsense to consider "deeply integrated trade partner" and "foreign adversary" to be mutually exclusive categories. You can thank the hubris of 90s American politicians for the fact that China is both, and it will take some time and effort to unwind the situation. > To your earlier point, of course if an app is "draining the user's bank account without authorization" Apple or Google will block them, but that is not the job of politicians in Washington. No. It's totally within the remit of politicians to ban such apps, just like it's in their remit to make theft illegal and do a great deal of other things. That fact that a corporate pseudo-government might also take a similar action is irrelevant.
        danboarder 3y ago
        > It's nonsense to consider "deeply integrated trade partner" and "foreign adversary" to be mutually exclusive categories. Fine, but it's also unfortunate that we have corporate-pseudo-government entities (like Meta) lobbying and leveraging the power of actual government against the will of the people through FUD campaigns (see their Targeted Victory contract, for example). Restricting American access to their biggest competitor is arguably corporate-government collusion. https://fortune.com/2022/03/31/facebook-meta-paid-republican-consulting-firm-targeted-victory-turn-public-opinion-against-tiktok/ https://fortune.com/2022/03/31/facebook-meta-paid-republican...
remarkEon 3y ago
This wouldn't be the first time that the US Government forced a sale of a company because it's owned by China. This happened in 2019 with Grindr[1], and no one really cared or noticed. The language being used here isn't even correct, since this isn't a "ban". There was a bill a year or two ago that would've done that explicitly, but it didn't really go anywhere. Should this bill pass, it puts other companies in the position of complying (Apple, Google etc) by removing it from the store if Bytedance doesn't actually sell the thing. All of this seems eminently reasonable to me, and it's a massive credit to TikTok that they've managed to cloud the language we use to discuss this topic. Unfortunately for them, that activity is probably pushing people on the fence into the YES camp. Side note: outright banning it seems wrong to me, for reasons I find hard to articulate so I'm not really wedded to that position. Then again, I watch some of these videos from people hyperventilating like a drug addict over this and then I think "nevermind, ban it yesterday". [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us-is-forcing-chinese-company-sell-gay-dating-app-grindr/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us...

6 points by danboarder 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Bolt take considering this is no different than what China has been doing to the west for decades. https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/14/tech/china-reactions-tiktok-potential-ban-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/14/tech/china-reactions-tiktok-p...

danboarder 3y ago
My take - if the US is still the "land of the free" then the government should not be banning citizens access to apps. The idea of politicians in the house and senate (or president) deciding which apps to ban from the app stores will likely lead to similar actions against websites, from the article: As written, any “website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application” that is “determined by the President to present a significant threat to the National Security of the United States” is covered. "National security" is a nebulous term that feels like an excuse to ban competitors on behalf of lobbyists at Meta or elsewhere, this is not in the interest of the majority of citizens.
- tivert 3y ago
  > My take - if the US is still the "land of the free" then the government should not be banning citizens access to apps. That's nonsense when phrased so broadly. I mean, your condition would even include apps that, say, drained the user's bank account without authorization. A twee libertarian might insist on that, but practically it can't work (sort of like arachno-capitalism, the Ununoctium of political ideologies). > As written, any “website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application” that is “determined by the President to present a significant threat to the National Security of the United States” is covered. You've omitted the "foreign adversary controlled application" language from your quote, which is an important qualification and the omission is misleading and inflammatory.
  - danboarder 3y ago
    To your last point, China is on that list though (as a "foreign adversary"). In my view this is a political designation as China is actually our deeply integrated trade partner, manufacturing most of the hardware we are all discussing this on, it seems absurd to label a trade partner as a "foreign adversary" IMO. To your earlier point, of course if an app is "draining the user's bank account without authorization" Apple or Google will block them, but that is not the job of politicians in Washington.
    - tivert 3y ago
      > In my view this is a political designation as China is actually our deeply integrated trade partner, manufacturing most of the hardware we are all discussing this on, it seems absurd to label a trade partner as a "foreign adversary" IMO. It's nonsense to consider "deeply integrated trade partner" and "foreign adversary" to be mutually exclusive categories. You can thank the hubris of 90s American politicians for the fact that China is both, and it will take some time and effort to unwind the situation. > To your earlier point, of course if an app is "draining the user's bank account without authorization" Apple or Google will block them, but that is not the job of politicians in Washington. No. It's totally within the remit of politicians to ban such apps, just like it's in their remit to make theft illegal and do a great deal of other things. That fact that a corporate pseudo-government might also take a similar action is irrelevant.
      - danboarder 3y ago
        > It's nonsense to consider "deeply integrated trade partner" and "foreign adversary" to be mutually exclusive categories. Fine, but it's also unfortunate that we have corporate-pseudo-government entities (like Meta) lobbying and leveraging the power of actual government against the will of the people through FUD campaigns (see their Targeted Victory contract, for example). Restricting American access to their biggest competitor is arguably corporate-government collusion. https://fortune.com/2022/03/31/facebook-meta-paid-republican-consulting-firm-targeted-victory-turn-public-opinion-against-tiktok/ https://fortune.com/2022/03/31/facebook-meta-paid-republican...

remarkEon 3y ago

This wouldn't be the first time that the US Government forced a sale of a company because it's owned by China. This happened in 2019 with Grindr[1], and no one really cared or noticed. The language being used here isn't even correct, since this isn't a "ban". There was a bill a year or two ago that would've done that explicitly, but it didn't really go anywhere. Should this bill pass, it puts other companies in the position of complying (Apple, Google etc) by removing it from the store if Bytedance doesn't actually sell the thing. All of this seems eminently reasonable to me, and it's a massive credit to TikTok that they've managed to cloud the language we use to discuss this topic. Unfortunately for them, that activity is probably pushing people on the fence into the YES camp. Side note: outright banning it seems wrong to me, for reasons I find hard to articulate so I'm not really wedded to that position. Then again, I watch some of these videos from people hyperventilating like a drug addict over this and then I think "nevermind, ban it yesterday". [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us-is-forcing-chinese-company-sell-gay-dating-app-grindr/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us...