4 ms·

That's why I love the fact that Elixir has a built-in formatter and pretty much everyone in the community just uses it. It's also not very configurable, so ther

That's why I love the fact that Elixir has a built-in formatter and pretty much everyone in the community just uses it. It's also not very configurable, so there isn't even a point in having these kinds of discussions.

dartos 3y ago
Elixir mentioned! Question, do you use elixir professionally? If so, how did you get in that position? The company I currently work at is planning to build a large messaging system using C# and a ton of memory mapped files, but I think just leveraging elixir/erlang and BEAM would make life easier. Not really sure how to convince bossman of that, though.
- packetlost 3y ago
  IMO it's better to think of programming languages in the same way as frameworks in cases like this: because they are. Frameworks present a tradeoff in many areas, but the big ones tend to be solving issues specific to some domain, and the "framework cost" which is needing to work within the constraints and expectations of the framework. Typically the hard part about learning a new programming language is not learning the syntax, it's learning the semantics and the standard library, something that you will pay some amount of when adopting a framework. Maybe to a lesser degree, but most programming languages tend to have consistent semantics around core things like control flow. If you want my personal opinion, I think you'll spend more time getting cut by the razor sharp edges of `mmap(2)` (or whatever the Windows equivalent is) than picking up Elixir, must less the difficulty in handling edge cases such as extremely high load and network failures. Elixir (or rather, BEAM + OTP) is built specifically with the problems you will face in mind, and it would be naive to not at least take a serious look at it. I'll also add, that while I don't know the specifics of your system, message broker/passing systems tend to have very hard boundaries with serialization in-between, making it easy to build polyglot systems. Edit: also w.r.t. picking up a new language, I'm referring to the cost of a team picking up a new language, not you as an individual :)
- neonsunset 3y ago
  You are risking to lose a lot of performance by switching away from .NET (assuming you're using anything that isn't EOL) to Elixir. mmap is...alright, but it's not a panacea and 1BRC challenge was a good demonstration that you reach identical performance with often less trouble by leveraging `FileStream`, `SafeFileHandle` and `RandomAccess` instead (the latter is as low on overhead as it gets, reading to a stack buffer with `RandomAccess` read is barely more expensive than calling `pread` from C directly).
  - dartos 3y ago
    It’s all greenfield right now, so we have no metrics.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  I'm not the person you're asking, but we used Elixir professionally at work - still do, I guess, since it's still running - but we're moving off of it. The biggest problem is that for the most part it's a pretty and a pretty cool language - but it doesn't have a huge community you can hire out of. So if all of your Elixir experts leave, and you're faced with a problem you cannot solve, it becomes significantly harder to figure out what the correct solution is. And for us, especially, using Elixir didn't give us any huge benefits that other languages couldn't also provide. So you don't need to convince the bossman that Elixir is the correct language to use; you need to convince the bossman that it's a solution that will still be maintainable when you and several of your coworkers who wrote the thing leave for greener pastures.
brabel 3y ago
Same with Dart. You may not like the style too much, but at least it's consistent and everyone uses it. Dart also has a kind of "standard lints" (one for Flutter, one for just Dart): https://dart.dev/tools/linter-rules https://dart.dev/tools/linter-rules Even though you can write your own lints to verify every little detail of the code, the fact that standards exist is great. Check out the rules enabled by the default lints, it's pretty amazing: https://github.com/dart-lang/lints/blob/main/rules.md https://github.com/dart-lang/lints/blob/main/rules.md
pavel_lishin 3y ago
Elixir's formatting is one of the several things that annoys the hell out of me. I can't pull out an example at the moment, but it absolutely loves to move comments out of a block where they're relevant to the exact line, up several lines to where the block itself begins, losing a lot of the immediate context and forcing me to write something significantly more verbose.

dartos 3y ago

Elixir mentioned! Question, do you use elixir professionally? If so, how did you get in that position? The company I currently work at is planning to build a large messaging system using C# and a ton of memory mapped files, but I think just leveraging elixir/erlang and BEAM would make life easier. Not really sure how to convince bossman of that, though.

packetlost 3y ago
IMO it's better to think of programming languages in the same way as frameworks in cases like this: because they are. Frameworks present a tradeoff in many areas, but the big ones tend to be solving issues specific to some domain, and the "framework cost" which is needing to work within the constraints and expectations of the framework. Typically the hard part about learning a new programming language is not learning the syntax, it's learning the semantics and the standard library, something that you will pay some amount of when adopting a framework. Maybe to a lesser degree, but most programming languages tend to have consistent semantics around core things like control flow. If you want my personal opinion, I think you'll spend more time getting cut by the razor sharp edges of `mmap(2)` (or whatever the Windows equivalent is) than picking up Elixir, must less the difficulty in handling edge cases such as extremely high load and network failures. Elixir (or rather, BEAM + OTP) is built specifically with the problems you will face in mind, and it would be naive to not at least take a serious look at it. I'll also add, that while I don't know the specifics of your system, message broker/passing systems tend to have very hard boundaries with serialization in-between, making it easy to build polyglot systems. Edit: also w.r.t. picking up a new language, I'm referring to the cost of a team picking up a new language, not you as an individual :)
neonsunset 3y ago
You are risking to lose a lot of performance by switching away from .NET (assuming you're using anything that isn't EOL) to Elixir. mmap is...alright, but it's not a panacea and 1BRC challenge was a good demonstration that you reach identical performance with often less trouble by leveraging `FileStream`, `SafeFileHandle` and `RandomAccess` instead (the latter is as low on overhead as it gets, reading to a stack buffer with `RandomAccess` read is barely more expensive than calling `pread` from C directly).
- dartos 3y ago
  It’s all greenfield right now, so we have no metrics.
pavel_lishin 3y ago
I'm not the person you're asking, but we used Elixir professionally at work - still do, I guess, since it's still running - but we're moving off of it. The biggest problem is that for the most part it's a pretty and a pretty cool language - but it doesn't have a huge community you can hire out of. So if all of your Elixir experts leave, and you're faced with a problem you cannot solve, it becomes significantly harder to figure out what the correct solution is. And for us, especially, using Elixir didn't give us any huge benefits that other languages couldn't also provide. So you don't need to convince the bossman that Elixir is the correct language to use; you need to convince the bossman that it's a solution that will still be maintainable when you and several of your coworkers who wrote the thing leave for greener pastures.

brabel 3y ago

Same with Dart. You may not like the style too much, but at least it's consistent and everyone uses it. Dart also has a kind of "standard lints" (one for Flutter, one for just Dart): https://dart.dev/tools/linter-rules https://dart.dev/tools/linter-rules Even though you can write your own lints to verify every little detail of the code, the fact that standards exist is great. Check out the rules enabled by the default lints, it's pretty amazing: https://github.com/dart-lang/lints/blob/main/rules.md https://github.com/dart-lang/lints/blob/main/rules.md

pavel_lishin 3y ago

Elixir's formatting is one of the several things that annoys the hell out of me. I can't pull out an example at the moment, but it absolutely loves to move comments out of a block where they're relevant to the exact line, up several lines to where the block itself begins, losing a lot of the immediate context and forcing me to write something significantly more verbose.