8 ms·

I think the key to your last bit is "indoors." People don't consider it rude when talking to each other outdoors because it's mutually understood that wearing t

I think the key to your last bit is "indoors." People don't consider it rude when talking to each other outdoors because it's mutually understood that wearing the device is beneficial. All it takes is to get to that point with AR. So it's more a critique of the state of AR's present usefulness rather than an innate, immovable reflection on society.

baby_souffle 3y ago
I don’t think it’s just usefulness. I know that you can’t possibly be watching something else on your sunglasses when talking to me indoors or out. At least with google glass it was trivial to see where the eyes were pointed.
- SeanAnderson 3y ago
  I agree it is unfortunate that you can't tell where someone's eyes are at when talking with sunglasses on and I also agree that it detracts from the socialization experience. I do not feel that this loss makes it rude to have an outside conversation wearing sunglasses in a sunny environment. So, I still think that AR will find its way in. I'm not saying it won't reduce the socialization experience further. It'll just be perceived as semi-necessary, understandable, and life will move on.
  - treflop 3y ago
    Sunglasses may detract but they actually serve one purpose -- it's too damned bright out. Having AR glasses on is totally different.
    - SeanAnderson 3y ago
      Maybe for this generation, but give it time. I think expectations will shift. Children used to be told "don't sit so close to the TV" and now we're strapping monitors to our heads.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - veidr 3y ago
      It's not totally different. It's very similar. The main difference is that there might be any number of equally-or-more-valid reasons to have AR/MR glasses on than "it's too bright". Like, "I'm on call for blahblah" or "I'm watching the baby monitor" or... whatever, a million possibilities. So yes, AR glasses detract, but no, it's not different. Also, lots of wearers consider that social interaction complexifier a feature, not a bug. Which is why you see a lot of cops wear sunglasses all the time, even with no sun. For a deep, heart-to-heart conversation with somebody important? Sure, take them off. For anything else...
      - treflop 3y ago
        Your arguments are from the PoV of the wearer. Sure, as a wearer, you know that you are paying attention to whoever you are talking to, but as someone on the other side, I don't know that. That's not a problem with sunglasses because it's inherently impossible for you to be doing something else. The issue that people have with AR glasses (and to some extent, people wearing sunglasses unnecessarily) is that AR glass wearers are thinking more about themselves than the perspective of other person. And then to defend AR glasses saying "I could be doing something important but actually I'm paying attention" is like doubling down on that lack of awareness. I'm not opposed to AR glassses. I'm just explaining why they are a bit of a faux pas and the people who think they are OK are also the reason why they are not OK.
  - BytesAndGears 3y ago
    Except what is the benefit that it’s providing, that people asked to have solved? I feel like if you went up to someone and asked “how can we improve this social interaction?” Literally nobody would suggest strapping a screen to your face anywhere in the list of improvements. Here’s some other technology improvements: What would make your TV experience better? * make it bigger * allow it to use the internet to watch infinite shows * make it cheaper * make the colors brighter What would make your analog home-phone experience better? * make it portable * make it smaller * allow me to save contacts within it * allow me to take other notes * now that I have this little thing in my pocket anyways, make it do more stuff Then when we think of the problems that lead to AR being the solution, it’s almost entirely related to business problems. Surgery, manufacturing, carpentry, construction… all would benefit from a HUD that tells you what to put where. Those are real benefits. But anything that people would do in a social situation? Almost never will the answer to a human interaction problem to be “attach a screen to your face”. In that scenario, all of the solutions are really in search of a problem.
    - SeanAnderson 3y ago
      I think a convincing example is to show a heads-up display of what two people last talked about as to enrich the conversation. I already do this but more manually. For example, I don't try to remember everyone's birthday. Instead, I put their birthday's in my calendar, get a notification when it's close, and use this information to enrich our relationship. It seems reasonable to believe this could be extended much further if the barrier to recording and recalling the information was reduced.
      - baby_souffle 3y ago
        > I think a convincing example is to show a heads-up display of what two people last talked about as to enrich the conversation. Perhaps. It might be a generation or two before the "that's ... creepy" vibes fade. Reminds me a bit of that scene in minority report after the eye swap and the protagonist passes by a billboard and the avatar asks him about how the pants he purchased worked out. I do something similar to the calendar thing too. I reach out a few days ahead of time so it doesn't seem like I'm just doing it reflexively like an unfeeling robot because facebook prompted me to do so day of.
njovin 3y ago
The problem isn't the form factor, it's the purpose. Wearing sunglasses is beneficial because it protects my eyes and makes it easier to look at you when you're talking to me. Wearing an AR device is like telling you something more important than our conversation might come up and I need to be able to quickly shift my focus from you to it. Maybe it's my age (early 40s) but it's common for our friend/family group to shame each other (in a half-kidding-half-not way) when somebody gets into their phone too much during a social event. "If you're going to be here, be here" is a mantra we tease each other with. We hold each other accountable enough to where when my elementary-age son picks out a movie for us to watch, if one of the adults in the room starts scrolling on their phone he'll pause the movie and ask them if they're going to pay attention or not.
- SeanAnderson 3y ago
  My assumption is that this expectation will shift as time passes. I can see a future where people use AR, there's a setting that indicates "full focus" vs "distracted", and people will ask others to stay in "full focus" mode when talking. This would minimize the number of notifications the user receives in an effort to lend focus to the conversation. It'll be the same general expectation as what you're describing, but with a step towards concession and acceptance of the tech. There will also probably be an in-between period where people who remain glued to their phone try to take the morale high ground against those who are using AR goggles by saying they're giving more focus to the conversation :)
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    Full focus mode would have to be passthrough with no notifications or external information. I feel like anything less would just be the current phone status quo.
    - SeanAnderson 3y ago
      I dunno. Some people have trouble reading emotions from other people's facial expressions. A heads-up display that conveys this sort of information in real-time could help improve the conversation. Or pulling up highlights from the last time a conversation occurred so you can more easily pick up where you left off. Of course, some people will feel like these changes reduce the humanity of the interaction because you're letting the device do too much of the work and others will disagree and say that the tech is just helping automate and improve a task they were already performing. Both camps will have fair points. These sorts of behaviors which augment the conversation seem distinct from concepts like "be shown new text messages while mid-conversation" which I do think should be able to be silenced and conveyed as being silenced.

baby_souffle 3y ago

I don’t think it’s just usefulness. I know that you can’t possibly be watching something else on your sunglasses when talking to me indoors or out. At least with google glass it was trivial to see where the eyes were pointed.

SeanAnderson 3y ago
I agree it is unfortunate that you can't tell where someone's eyes are at when talking with sunglasses on and I also agree that it detracts from the socialization experience. I do not feel that this loss makes it rude to have an outside conversation wearing sunglasses in a sunny environment. So, I still think that AR will find its way in. I'm not saying it won't reduce the socialization experience further. It'll just be perceived as semi-necessary, understandable, and life will move on.
- treflop 3y ago
  Sunglasses may detract but they actually serve one purpose -- it's too damned bright out. Having AR glasses on is totally different.
  - SeanAnderson 3y ago
    Maybe for this generation, but give it time. I think expectations will shift. Children used to be told "don't sit so close to the TV" and now we're strapping monitors to our heads.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - veidr 3y ago
    It's not totally different. It's very similar. The main difference is that there might be any number of equally-or-more-valid reasons to have AR/MR glasses on than "it's too bright". Like, "I'm on call for blahblah" or "I'm watching the baby monitor" or... whatever, a million possibilities. So yes, AR glasses detract, but no, it's not different. Also, lots of wearers consider that social interaction complexifier a feature, not a bug. Which is why you see a lot of cops wear sunglasses all the time, even with no sun. For a deep, heart-to-heart conversation with somebody important? Sure, take them off. For anything else...
    - treflop 3y ago
      Your arguments are from the PoV of the wearer. Sure, as a wearer, you know that you are paying attention to whoever you are talking to, but as someone on the other side, I don't know that. That's not a problem with sunglasses because it's inherently impossible for you to be doing something else. The issue that people have with AR glasses (and to some extent, people wearing sunglasses unnecessarily) is that AR glass wearers are thinking more about themselves than the perspective of other person. And then to defend AR glasses saying "I could be doing something important but actually I'm paying attention" is like doubling down on that lack of awareness. I'm not opposed to AR glassses. I'm just explaining why they are a bit of a faux pas and the people who think they are OK are also the reason why they are not OK.
- BytesAndGears 3y ago
  Except what is the benefit that it’s providing, that people asked to have solved? I feel like if you went up to someone and asked “how can we improve this social interaction?” Literally nobody would suggest strapping a screen to your face anywhere in the list of improvements. Here’s some other technology improvements: What would make your TV experience better? * make it bigger * allow it to use the internet to watch infinite shows * make it cheaper * make the colors brighter What would make your analog home-phone experience better? * make it portable * make it smaller * allow me to save contacts within it * allow me to take other notes * now that I have this little thing in my pocket anyways, make it do more stuff Then when we think of the problems that lead to AR being the solution, it’s almost entirely related to business problems. Surgery, manufacturing, carpentry, construction… all would benefit from a HUD that tells you what to put where. Those are real benefits. But anything that people would do in a social situation? Almost never will the answer to a human interaction problem to be “attach a screen to your face”. In that scenario, all of the solutions are really in search of a problem.
  - SeanAnderson 3y ago
    I think a convincing example is to show a heads-up display of what two people last talked about as to enrich the conversation. I already do this but more manually. For example, I don't try to remember everyone's birthday. Instead, I put their birthday's in my calendar, get a notification when it's close, and use this information to enrich our relationship. It seems reasonable to believe this could be extended much further if the barrier to recording and recalling the information was reduced.
    - baby_souffle 3y ago
      > I think a convincing example is to show a heads-up display of what two people last talked about as to enrich the conversation. Perhaps. It might be a generation or two before the "that's ... creepy" vibes fade. Reminds me a bit of that scene in minority report after the eye swap and the protagonist passes by a billboard and the avatar asks him about how the pants he purchased worked out. I do something similar to the calendar thing too. I reach out a few days ahead of time so it doesn't seem like I'm just doing it reflexively like an unfeeling robot because facebook prompted me to do so day of.

njovin 3y ago

The problem isn't the form factor, it's the purpose. Wearing sunglasses is beneficial because it protects my eyes and makes it easier to look at you when you're talking to me. Wearing an AR device is like telling you something more important than our conversation might come up and I need to be able to quickly shift my focus from you to it. Maybe it's my age (early 40s) but it's common for our friend/family group to shame each other (in a half-kidding-half-not way) when somebody gets into their phone too much during a social event. "If you're going to be here, be here" is a mantra we tease each other with. We hold each other accountable enough to where when my elementary-age son picks out a movie for us to watch, if one of the adults in the room starts scrolling on their phone he'll pause the movie and ask them if they're going to pay attention or not.

SeanAnderson 3y ago
My assumption is that this expectation will shift as time passes. I can see a future where people use AR, there's a setting that indicates "full focus" vs "distracted", and people will ask others to stay in "full focus" mode when talking. This would minimize the number of notifications the user receives in an effort to lend focus to the conversation. It'll be the same general expectation as what you're describing, but with a step towards concession and acceptance of the tech. There will also probably be an in-between period where people who remain glued to their phone try to take the morale high ground against those who are using AR goggles by saying they're giving more focus to the conversation :)
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  Full focus mode would have to be passthrough with no notifications or external information. I feel like anything less would just be the current phone status quo.
  - SeanAnderson 3y ago
    I dunno. Some people have trouble reading emotions from other people's facial expressions. A heads-up display that conveys this sort of information in real-time could help improve the conversation. Or pulling up highlights from the last time a conversation occurred so you can more easily pick up where you left off. Of course, some people will feel like these changes reduce the humanity of the interaction because you're letting the device do too much of the work and others will disagree and say that the tech is just helping automate and improve a task they were already performing. Both camps will have fair points. These sorts of behaviors which augment the conversation seem distinct from concepts like "be shown new text messages while mid-conversation" which I do think should be able to be silenced and conveyed as being silenced.